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That's literally unambiguously a nazi salute. I've seen them before, from actual nazis. Because I am descended from one unfortunately.

It's shameful and at no point does any word play and excuse making around it make it ok. This needs to stop now. Right now.

Add to that the literal support for the far right parties definitely and conclusively aligned with nazi ideology, such as the AfD, it's terrible for everyone.


The ADL, who is defending him, is the world's foremost anti-neo-Nazi organization. If they say not to worry, I'm going to trust their judgment, even though the photos look pretty questionable to me as a layman.


I was wrong; Musk endorsed the AfD, so he is a neo-Nazi. The ADL and I were wrong. https://www.npr.org/2025/01/27/nx-s1-5276084/elon-musk-germa...


The ADL have ended up in a weird place where the important thing to them is pro-Israel anti-Palestine policy, and everything is downstream from there.

The ADL last called out Musk for reinstating and awarding a tick to Kanye West after West made anti-semitic remarks which got him banned from Twitter. However, that's not as important to them as maintaining the war in Gaza.


Look at the video, it's not a bad angle or misinterpretation. And he did it twice.


I think you need to watch the videos not look at the photos as the videos show more unambiguous context and do not come with a narrative explaining them away. These are plain and simple nazi salutes.


actually if you understand a bit of the meaning behind the salute and how Nazis appropriated terms like "unify", "heal" and a "new beginning" [for Germany] then some of the quotes which they use to weaken the argument of it being a "Sieg Heil" actually strengthen it.


> world's foremost anti-neo-Nazi organization

no and they never have been, outside of the US and US contextualized business not many even know what it even is

through it is maybe the worlds foremost anti-antisemitism organization

But in case you might have missed it some neo Nazis and many more non-nazi fascists have dropped their antisemitism from a core point to a not much talked about side point, blaming everything on jews is just currently not very effective. You also might have missed that Israels government hasn't been exactly anti-fascist in recent times. Giving their far right, fear driving, not so open for opposition government which is fine with committing war crimes they themself aren't that far away from fascism.

Fascism doesn't need antisemitism, it just happens to most times come with it.


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a) This isn't about Trump. It's about Musk.

b) There are leading Nazi experts who have said it is a Nazi salute.

c) ADL has far broader goals on its mind than what idiotic thing Musk does or doesn't do so their statement needs to be put in context and taken with a grain of salt.


If it's the ADL, they don't speak for everyone and they do not speak for me.

I'm literally German descended, living in the UK with little to no shit given about Trump whatsoever at all. This is Musk. What I do have a problem with is my friends and my families having a history going back nearly 100 years of misery, death and loss from the ideological constructs he's pushing for the last few years.

You can be a statesman and show respect, honour and decorum or you can be like that. There is no place in our political landscape anywhere for this.

So quite frankly stop gaslighting.

You need to understand that despite what people believe in the US, Europe is ideologically different and has a longer memory. There are literally reminders everywhere around us every day of last time.


I'm British. My grandparents were probably bombed by yours.

I'll admit he's not one for showing decorum.

I don't see any ideological constructs pushed by Elon that are remotely similar to those pushed by the Nazi party.


So you've never read nazi propaganda, good for you.

Where do you think the 'great replacement' theory came from? Renaud Camus, unlike most far-right people, actually read books (I'm as surprised as you are, it's not in their culture), especially Charle Maurras, and reactualized the late 19th century theory, dressing up the most blatant anti-Semitism but keeping the meat.

What's interesting is that it is clear that Maurras is a way better writer than Renaud Camus, even if it's very dated. For the far-right of the 21st century, I don't expect much. The fact that they read is already impressive enough.


My grandparents were bombing each other.

So you literally missed the bit where he was going on about antisemitic conspiracy theories being "the actual truth"? Crikey. Appears no one has any context these days.


Musk has:

a) routinely demonised immigrants.

b) espoused the Great Replacement Theory.

c) endorsed a tweet saying that black people have inherently lower IQ.

d) perpetuated lies about companies prioritising diversity over safety.

There are hundreds of examples I could list. But suffice to say his ideologies have a significant overlap with the Nazi ideology. And the recent salutes should give you no delusion about what his inspiration is.


Feels like Amazon are turning into Microsoft slowly. Try everything, spread themselves too thin and then shitcan it later. I am reluctant to use anything other than their core IaaS and EKS stuff. Some of the ancillary stuff appears to be maintained by two drunk guys in a shed somewhere as well.


I think the economics drive the same way for all companies.


Perhaps they did and got told no and decided to take it anyway?

Defending themselves with technicalities and expensive lawyers may be financially viable.

Zero ethics but what would we expect from them?


Who is "them"? Like, who in the Meta business reporting line made this decision, then how did they communicate it to the engineers who would've been necessary to implement it, particularly at scale?

While it's plausible someone downloaded a bunch of torrents and tossed them in the training directory...again, under who's authority? Like if this happened it would be one overzealous data scientist potentially. Hardly "them".

People lean on collective pronouns to avoid actually thinking about the mechanics of human enterprise and you get extremely absurd conclusions.

(it is not outside the bounds of thinkable that an org could in fact have a very bad culture like this, but I know people who work for Meta, who also have law degrees - they're well aware of the potential problems).


Come on... it's fine that you haven't followed the story, there's a lot going on, but the snotty condescension is very frustrating:

  These newly unredacted documents reveal exchanges between Meta employees unearthed in the discovery process, like a Meta engineer telling a colleague that they hesitated to access LibGen data because “torrenting from a [Meta-owned] corporate laptop doesn’t feel right ”. They also allege that internal discussions about using LibGen data were escalated to Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg (referred to as "MZ" in the memo handed over during discovery) and that Meta's AI team was "approved to use" the pirated material.
https://www.wired.com/story/new-documents-unredacted-meta-co...


This is slightly poetic after the flights diverted due to the Starship debris the other day.

Also remind me never to fly Delta.


According to the article, they were flying the route as directed by air traffic control.

As a pilot, I can tell you that when you're being controlled, the controller takes responsibility for your navigation. This had nothing to do with Delta specifically. Any other pilot flying under the same conditions would have done the same.


If this is what you’re choosing as criteria for never flying Delta I’m going to suggest you never fly out of LAX. Commercial airliners are directed by ATC along defined routes or given headings and altitudes by the ATC.


Delta seems to have done nothing wrong, they were following incorrect instructions from air traffic control.


Just to play devil's advocate for a second, but as a pilot (even a commercial pilot about to be instructed by ATC) are you not still expected to look up conditions in the area of your flight? I would expect NOTAMs to be a part of that check of the conditions. If you know of the restrictions and ATC instructs you into that area, a quick confirm request about the NOTAM conflict does not seem out of place.


Yes & no, definitely more no for practical reasons. Let me explain;

ATC are ultimately expected to know about restrictions and keep traffic away from them.

NOTAM's are a notorious pain point for nearly all pilots. Modern EFB's make that easier, but in the 121 world - the ops folks handle your routing and plan for that stuff - as a pilot you "trust but verify", and most skim through the all the things (routing, fuels, weather, pax/cargo, notams, SIDS/STARS etc) to make sure that the flight is doable, it's doable safely, and it's "legal".

What you're expecting is a pilot to have a read a NOTAM, memorised all the latitude / longitude co-ordinates that are in the NOTAM for the "grid" that's off limits, and the associated altitudes, know exactly where that is in relation to where they are, and then be able to ask ATC about it a few hours into their flight, when the instruction could be as benign as "Delta 100, turn right heading 040".

Chances are the original routing for the flight kept them safely out of the TFR, but the ATC instruction for whatever sent them through it, even briefly. That instruction could've been for any number of reasons, from weather to traffic, to sequencing to even sidestepping a different restriction of some kind.

Here's a NOTAM for a Starship launch (I don't know if it was for this one specifically, I don't want to use my limited brain cells right now):

  B0995/24 NOTAMN MMFR/QRDCA/IV/BO/W/000/999/ MMFR 2411181300 2411262300 18-22 25 26 1300-1500 2100-2300, 23 24 1300-1400 2100-2300 DANGEROUS AREA FOR LAUNCHING OF ROCKET STARSHIP SUPER HEAVY ORBITAL TEST FLIGHT 6 LATERAL LIMIT AREA FORMED BY THE UNION OF THE FLW POINTS: 25 52 0.00N 097 11 0.00W 25 18 0.00N 096 30 0.00W 24 39 0.00N 093 13 0.00W 24 10 0.00N 090 17 0.00W 24 57 0.00N 089 36 0.00W 24 27 0.00N 085 58 0.00W 24 09 0.00N 084 11 0.00W 23 39 0.00N 081 10 0.00W 23 07 0.00N 078 45 0.00W 23 35 0.00N 078 36 0.00W 24 19 0.00N 082 13 0.00W 24 50 0.00N 084 33 0.00W 25 20 0.00N 087 20 0.00W 26 47 0.00N 092 60 0.00W 26 38 0.00N 095 39 0.00W 26 27 0.00N 096 32 0.00W 26 10 0.00N 097 11 0.00W 26 00 0.00N 097 14 0.00W 25 52 0.00N 097 11 0.00W MMFR SFC UNL


To underscore your point, the original flight plan almost certainly did not transit that region. So the pilot likely wouldn’t have even been aware that there’s a TFR somewhere vaguely adjacent to their intended path.

ATC issues minor deviations all the time and for a plethora of reasons as you mentioned. And those instructions are expected to be followed promptly, not “after I’ve spent a half hour re-reviewing hundreds of possible NOTAMs along the new course”.


> Here's a NOTAM for a Starship launch (I don't know if it was for this one specifically, I don't want to use my limited brain cells right now):

2411 sticks out from the datestamp, so no, not this one unless the news article is 2 months late.


There is usually a difference between 'did nothing wrong' and primary responsibility.


Sure, of course if ATC tells them to land on a runway that is clearly occupied they have a responsibility to notice this and override.

In this case, they were directed into an area that was not occupied by an authority that controls the region's airspace. They could have asked ATC about it but ATC has control over the airspace.


In this case, DAL neither did anything wrong nor bears any responsibility.

They were being controlled by ATC, ATC told them where to fly. ATC erred.


If ATC put them straight into a Mountain, would it be correct to dutifully fly into it, or would that be an error on the pilot side?

My understanding is that Pilots are also required to review NOTAMs. There are tons of systems and operations with redundancy built in. An error in the primary does not negate an error in the backup. In fact, it is often the only way you learn of errors with the backup.


ATC instruction can be countermanded in the event of gross error or emergency.

That said, ATC instructions are to be followed promptly in the absence of such factors. You don’t get to wait and check hundreds of possible minor and irrelevant NOTAMs to find the before following through on their instruction, on the off chance they’ve completely screwed the pooch and are sending you through a TFR.


Delta is like the single decent airline in the US.


From the article, Delta pilots were following air traffic control directions.


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"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


I can assure you I’m a plain idiot, not the idiot savant.


Interesting.


Oh this is nothing. One of my colleagues does that and adds random colour changes, underlines and font face changes. It's like working with a serial killer.


Maybe he was a teenager on IRC in the late 90s or early 00s and decided to never change

Thinking about it I guess MSN messenger and My Space also allowed/encouraged font shenanigans? My memory falters


Ahh. I honestly miss that amount of self-expression, garish as it was. Or rather, I intensely dislike the mono-culture where every vertical video with one-word subtitles looks the same.


Quite frankly, it's cultural and the thing I hear a lot is simply: fuck that for a job!

I could quite happily get on fine at one of those big American style startups but I don't get excited about hype, I don't have the work culture it demands and I don't have a price on my soul. I'd rather earn a lot less, have extreme stability, have better family time and balance. On top of that there's something tasteless and unethical about a lot of the big startups. Do they really bring good things to society? Do I really want to be part of that?

If I can walk away with half the money, live a modest life and stand with my principles intact, I will take that over twice the money.

I don't think this is political at all. It's not a race either and we have no innate responsibility to build things like this.


The part about that plan that worries me is the ageism in software. I'm mid-forties and it's something I think about a lot for when I have to get a new job.

Anyone young should go make as much money as possible, as early as possible, so they can have the same outlook you do in later life.


Not really had any problems with that and I'm older than you are. And quite frankly I didn't have any money really until I hit about 35. I just lived within my means.


Hardware engineer here, from a qualification perspective. I worked for a large American defence company and was invited to work in the US. I declined.

The work culture, social and economic stability are terrible. Education is expensive or poor. Regulation and standards are poor. Not a good place to bring up a family.


Extrapolating this point outward, I don't think there is really any community computing.

Most people I know literally still to use the lowest common denominator of communications because corporates have managed to screw up interoperability in their land grabs to build walled gardens. The lowest common denominator in my area is emailing word documents or PDFs around. Same as we have been doing for the last 30 years. The network effect there was Word being the first thing on the market.

All other attempts have been entirely transient and are focused in either social matters or some attempt at file storage with collaboration bolted on the top. The latter, OneDrive being a particularly funny one, generally results in people having millions of little pockets of exactly what they were doing before with no collaboration or community at all.

If we do anything now it's just personal computing with extra and annoying steps.

And no, 99% of the planet doesn't use github. They just email shitty documents around all day. Then they go back home and stare at their transient worthless social community garbage faucet endlessly until their eyes fall shut.


I thought most folks had moved on to google docs and ms365?


Our tradition of electing morons into ministerial positions continues unimpeded by rationality, logic or perhaps even competence. I expect to see a resignation at some point in the future.

Fortunately their civil service underlings and our judiciary are slightly less incompetent when applied in large numbers.


This isn’t the only risk. There is also the problem of radicalising people. This has been a big problem in Europe.


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