I’m new to the language and thought these would be the same. But I just listened to some words with the two and the おお definitely has like a bigger o sound. That’s quite subtle.
You’ll hear it more easily with time. It’s hard to completely separate stuff like this from context (i.e. it’s far more rare to have a collision in sound that makes sense if you know the rest of the sentence), but it does matter for discriminating between words when you’re trying to look words up, for example.
I've never heard of the /o:/ of おう and おお being different. I've never seen a small child, or foreign speaker, being corrected in this matter; i.e that they are using the wrong /o:/ for the word and should make it sound like this instead.
This is literally not a thing that exists outside of some foreigners' imaginations. You will sooner hear a difference from $1000 speaker cables before you hear this, and it will only be if you are the one who paid.
You may be letting by pitch accent deceive you. In words that contain /o:/ it's possible for that to be a pitch boundary so that pitch rises during the /o:/ and that can contrast against another /o:/ word where that doesn't happen.
The 頬 word in Japanese is "kinda funny" in that it has a ほお variant and a ほほ variant. It has always stood out in my mind as peculiar. I'd swear I've heard an in-between "ほ・お" that sound somewhat reminiscent of "uh oh", with a bit of a volume dip or little stop that makes it sound like two /o/ vowels. It could be that the speaker intends ほほ, but the second /h/ sound is not articulated clearly. It may even be that the ほほ spelling was invented to try to represent this situation (which is a wild guess, based on zero research). In any case, the situation with that cheeky little word doesn't establish anything general about おお/こお/そお/とお...
I've been fooled by my imagination. For instance, many years ago I thought I would swear that I heard the object marker を sound like "WO" in some songs; i.e. exactly how it typed in romaji-based input methods, because it belongs to the わ group. Like "kimi-o" sounding like "kimi-wo". Today I'm convinced it is just a kind of 空耳 (soramimi). Or the artifact of /i/ followed by /o/ without interruption, becoming a dipthong that passes through /u/: it may be real, but unintentional. It's one of those things that if you convince yourself is real, you will tend to interpret what you are hearing in favor of that.
That's actually a good example because there are so many covers of that, you can see whether you hear the "whoopy wo" from differnt speakers.
There is a similar situation in the pronunication o 千円. There is a ghost "ye" that appears to the foreign ear. To the point that we have developed the exonym "yen" for the Japanese currency!!! The reality is more like that the /n/ is nasalized, similarly to what happens when it is followed by /g/. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ONt6a1o-hg
OK, finally, let's crack open the a 1998 edition of the the NHK日本語撥音辞典. On pages 832-833, we have all the /ho:/ words, with their pronunications including pitch accents:
ホー with falling accent after ホ: 方、砲、鵬、朴
And, our cheeky word 頬 gets a separate entry here due to its pronunications ホー and ほほ。Both have a falling pitch after the leading ほ, like 方. No difference is noted.
ホー with pitch rising at the "o": 法、報
So of course if you compare someone saying 法律 vs 頬, there will be a difference. But a lot of longer ほお words have the same rising pitch like 法. 法律 (ほうりつ） vs 放り出す （ほおりだす）is the same.
Fairly intuitively, 頬張る（ほおばる）has rising pitch at the お、in spite of 頬 by itself exhibiting falling pitch.
> This is literally not a thing that exists outside of some foreigners' imaginations.
I think you're a little obsessed with this. It's not pitch accent and I'm not "being fooled", but if you want to insist that you know better...fine? You do you!
> OK, finally, let's crack open the a 1998 edition of the the NHK日本語撥音辞典. On pages 832-833, we have all the /ho:/ words, with their pronunications including pitch accents: ホー with falling accent after ホ: 方、砲、鵬、朴
I've already given you examples where you can often hear the difference if you try. These "ho-words" are completely unrelated, and non-responsive. You seem to be arguing about something else (or just trying to name-drop the NHK pronunciation guide).
Anyway, there are two distinct sounds in the kana table for う and お. They're individually pronounced differently, so why you're so resistant to the idea that combinations of the two might also have a difference in pronunciation, I don't really know. I've personally had native teachers tell me this, and I hear it all the time. Go ask a native to slowly sound out the individual mora for a word like 紅茶 vs. say, 大阪 -- that's how I first heard it.
Anyway, I'm not really interested in debating this further. It's a very, very minor point. Good luck with your study.
> there are two distinct sounds in the kana table for う and お.
Oh no, that totally escaped my feeble attention. Boy, do I feel sheepishly stupid now.
> Go ask a native to slowly sound out the individual mora
In fact, now that you point it out, even if I do that myself, it's obvious they are different: ko-u-cha, o-o-sa-ka!
Well, I've just been going about this all wrong, barking up the wrong tree.
In hindsight it now makes total sense that they wouldn't just use う as a marker to indicate that the previous お is long. Thats what ー is for; whereas う has a sound!
As a reviewer I at least skimmed the papers for every reference in every paper that I review. If it isn't useful to furthering the point of the paper then my feedback is to remove the reference. Adding a bunch of junk because it is broadly related in a giant background section is a waste of everyone's time and should be removed. Most of the time you are mostly aware of the papers being cited anyway because that is the whole point of reviewing in your area of expertise.
There was definitely a widely held belief in the late 90s, early 00s that programming was commoditized to the point that it would be fully offshored to the lowest cost of labor. This happened in some areas and failed. It still happens now and then. But I remember hearing some of that based on OO and libraries making it so unskilled people could just put together legos.
I remember that. I studied CS in that period and some professors were convinced that software development was going to become an unskilled job, analogous to bricklaying, and that our goal as future CS graduates should be to become managers, just like someone that studies a university degree about making buildings is intended to become an architect and not a bricklayer.
I never believed it, though (if I had, I would probably have switched degrees, as I hate management). And while the belief was common, my impression is that it was only so among people who didn't code much. The details on how it would happen were always highly handwavy and people defending that view had a tendency to ignore any software beyond standard CRUD apps.
In contrast, if I had to choose a degree right now, I'd probably avoid CS (or at most study it out of passion, like one could study English philology or something, but without much hope of it being a safe choice for my career). I think the prospects for programmers in the LLM era look much scarier, and the threats look much more real, than they ever did in that period.
The bigger issue is that so many people have jumped into CS because programming (not the same thing I know) has become seen as this thing that will earn you big bucks.
Of course, some level of computer skills is important in most professions at this point. But logic suggests that CS (and programming) compensation will level out at a level comparable to similarly skilled technical professions.
It's a bit too generalizing that it failed and happens "now and then", offshoring is a multi-billion industry employing millions of people.
And the "unskilled people putting together legos" is also very much a thing in the form of low/no-code platforms, from my own circles there's Mendix and Tibco, arguably SAP, and probably a heap more. Arguably (my favorite word atm) it's also still true in most software development because outside of coding business logic, most heavy lifting is done by the language's SDK and 3rd party libraries.
I don’t know if they can pull it off but a lot of companies are built on strong enterprise sales being able to sell free stuff with a bow on it to someone who doesn’t know better or doesn’t care.
so it appears the entire text has been Translated with non-breaking space unicode x00a0 instead of normal spaces x0020, so the web layout is considering all paragraph text as a super-long single word ('the\00a0quick\00a0\brown\00a0fox' instead of 'the quick brown fox') - the non-breaking space character appears identically to breaking-space when rendered but underlying coding breaks the concept of "break at end of word" because there is no end as 00a0 literally means "non-breaking"). per Copilot spending a half hour explaining this to me, apparently this can be fixed by opening web browser developer view, and copy/pasting this code into the console.
function replaceInTextNodes(node) { if (node.nodeType === Node.TEXT_NODE) { node.nodeValue = node.nodeValue .replace(/\u00A0/g, ' '); } else { node.childNodes.forEach(replaceInTextNodes); } }
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