My personal thought on that is I would. Especially for repeat offenders. Though I can imagine something like that can quickly become a game of cat and mouse. But what I bet those sorts of sites don't have is the resources to compete against a crowd-sourced effort to keep those sorts of sites off HN. Not that people would be looking for offenders while browsing stories, but it's likely with awareness people would take time to verify unfamiliar sources that are submitted to the site. At least it forces owners of sites like that to scramble if they realize they can no longer get the clicks they used to get from HN. Especially the ones who are just spamming content in order to generate clicks.
It appears there have been a lot of submissions for that site in the past, so if they're a repeat offender it would probably be easy to extract that info.
You guys probably have a treasure trove of data where you could probably extract some of the more obvious offenders pretty easily. Cross referencing submissions by specific individuals for specific domains, etc. Though I imagine there would be plenty of false positives...
Also, just a thought, I would suggest that the warning message to submitter (if they tried to submit new URLs from banned domains) would be that the site has a history of plagiarism. That way they would probably do additional work to find the original (or more original) link than the one on that site. Also that way in case a site owner wanted to object they would know the reasoning behind the ban.
I know HN has been around a long time so I am probably re-hashing some of the things you've already got in place, but figured I'd put some thoughts out there in case you guys didn't already have something in place.
Would you suggest reporting these sorts of things via email in general?
Thanks for the input. Yes, please definitely report anything like this via email. That's the only reason we found out about this—another user wrote and suggested changing the link.
I wasn't 100% sure of the etiquette when something like that comes up. I posted to the thread earlier, but no one definitively told me that's how I should handle it. I will make a note for future reference.
BTW, I've been going through a number of that domain's links here just a little while ago and saw most of the stories from that site are cross-posted on many other domains. It's almost as if there are so many cross-posts on some of those stories Google can't easily point me to a more "definitive" source. Instead there are just pages of links to unrecognizable domains that are all probably doing the same thing.
I'd be interested to know if HN moderators take note of this kind of behavior and consider blocking domains that have a history of doing this kind of thing.
Even though it's probably not a big deal to EFF, it's almost certainly a big deal to whoever is making money on other peoples' content. Not that I have noticed a problem on HN with this kind of thing before, but it seems it's the sort of thing that if it goes unchecked can potentially degrade quality given that HN would become a target for that sort of thing.
I personally wouldn't mind if a few of those articles didn't show up if the submitter was blocked, since it would only mean the submitter wasn't interested in doing the work to find the original source.
It appears that the EFF licenses its content under the Creative Commons Attribution License[0][1], which would make it acceptable to redistribute original content which is not already under a more restrictive license, if attribution is given, which the original site does not appear to have done. They also altered the content to remove the final paragraph, which would require attribution as well.
The EFF would be undermining their own credibility (not to mention that of free/open source licenses) if they were aware of this and choose to ignore it. I'd bet no one bothered reporting it, though.
There is an enormous amount of effort put into pre-emptive control of the capabilities of technology. Basically, banning or regulating technology based on what someone might do with it. If you start to look for examples of it, they start popping up all over the place. The justification of invading countries based on their potential access to WMDs is probably the most severe example of this being a principal preoccupation of governments. Drone regulations are the latest installment of this technological control obsession. A large amount of the tangentially political stuff posted to Hacker News is a variant on this theme. The encryption, drug, DRM and gun debate are regular battlegrounds for this pre-emptive technological control issue. It's weird that people don't recognize the common thread running through all these issues.
Not sure what you're saying - should we wait until people start doing bad things that will obviously happen, and then scramble to control it after the fact?
In a word: yes. It's the basis of much of our law, innocent until proven guilty and this applies on a personal level as well as it does on a larger scale. When it comes to counterfeiting, nuclear weapons, terrorist attacks and child pornography you could definitely make a case for prevention. And all these are 'bad things that will obviously happen' given human nature being what it is.
The problem is that once you do everything becomes couched in exactly those terms and so you end up with a whole bunch of 'thoughtcrime' which otherwise for the most part likely would not have come to harm, as well as artificial limitations to technology because - insert favorite bogeyman here.
Policing is like being a janitor, bad stuff happens (anyway, no matter how much you try to prevent it) and needs to be taken care of after the fact and you can't make this easier without treading on the rights of the non-criminals.
Another angle is that prevention can never be proven, you can say that you have prevented 1000 terrorist attacks last year but you can't prove that any of them would have come to pass.
What you can prove is which ones you did not manage to prevent.
So the metric should be 'solved cases' rather than prevented cases.
> It's the basis of much of our law, innocent until proven guilty and this applies on a personal level as well as it does on a larger scale.
It's also the basis for much of our laws to preemptively tackle many potential problems and to stop them before they occur. Examples include everything from environmental regulations to corporate anti-trust laws, to work-place & consumer safety laws, food safety laws, and the list goes on...
People are innocent until proven guilty of a crime but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't limit the most abused & risky offenses before they occur. We can't trust people to do what's right - 6 thousand years of human history has shown us that people will always, always remain corruptible and inherently selfish. Expecting people to do "the right thing" is one of the most naive sentiments someone can hold. Some will, sure, but the system, society itself relies on everyone doing the right thing (all the time) and that's just impossible. All it takes is one bad actor to spoil it for everyone else, and I'm sorry, but there will always be a bad actor so that's why these kinds of laws, regulations and protections are needed.
It's also the basis for much of our laws to preemptively tackle many potential problems and to stop them before they occur. Examples include everything from environmental regulations to corporate anti-trust laws, to work-place & consumer safety laws, food safety laws, and the list goes on...
Before those laws were created, we had numerous examples of pollution, corporate collusion, workplace hazards, etc. What awful scourge that long menaced the public are the yellow dots preventing?
You seem to be possessed of a finely-honed mistrust of human beings (which is wise), along with a credulous confidence in governments made up of human beings (which is... not).
> It's also the basis for much of our laws to preemptively tackle many potential problems and to stop them before they occur.
Yes, we do this in most cases by declaring some kind of framework within which we all at least should try to conform (assuming the framework makes sense, if not there is always civil disobedience and ultimately things like revolutions).
> Examples include everything from environmental regulations to corporate anti-trust laws, to work-place & consumer safety laws, food safety laws, and the list goes on...
Yes, those are all in terms of 'do's and don'ts', they're not in terms of 'every cook is legally required to sprinkle some DNA on the food so that it can be traced back to the cook in case they mess up'. And that's roughly what the technology under discussion here is doing.
> People are innocent until proven guilty of a crime but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't limit the most abused & risky offenses before they occur.
The most abused and risky offenses can't be limited before they occur. We can try but as soon as it declares everybody under suspicion before they've even done anything wrong a line has been crossed that I personally believe should not be crossed.
For instance: preventing murder is impossible, preventing robbery is impossible, preventing terrorism is impossible. Any one of those can be perpetrated by single individuals with relatively little in terms of education or preparation. If you want to limit them effectively you're going to have to drastically change the nature of our society, which is something I object to.
> We can't trust people to do what's right - 6 thousand years of human history has shown us that people will always, always remain corruptible and inherently selfish.
Precisely. And no amount of 'prevention' will change that.
> Expecting people to do "the right thing" is one of the most naive sentiments someone can hold.
I don't hold that sentiment at all, on the contrary, I think people will do 'wrong' no matter what and that preventing a few from doing wrong by imposing measures on the rest is the wrong way to solve this problem.
> Some will, sure, but the system, society itself relies on everyone doing the right thing (all the time) and that's just impossible.
Precisely.
> All it takes is one bad actor to spoil it for everyone else, and I'm sorry, but there will always be a bad actor so that's why these kinds of laws, regulations and protections are needed.
No, that's exactly why they're not needed. You can't prevent those things, period, get used to it and adapt because no matter how many idiotic technical measures are adapted there will (1) be ways around it and (2) it won't stop those determined enough to go down that route in the first place but it will inconvenience / trample rights / disenfranchise everybody else.
> No, that's exactly why they're not needed. You can't prevent those things, period, get used to it and adapt because no matter how many idiotic technical measures
So your logic is that since people will do it anyways, we don't need the laws? Do you have any idea how that sounds from a logic standpoint? "People will always murder other people, so the laws on murder are useless. Let's get rid of them".
What kind of logic is that?
> but it will inconvenience / trample rights / disenfranchise everybody else.
Yeah, just like the laws regarding food safety inconvenience the people in the industry. "Making sure our food doesn't have salmonella before we ship it to our retailers is such an inconvenience! We should do away with those regulations."
I'm sorry, but you're beginning to regurgitate libertarian nonsense. There's a reason why libertarianism never made it out of the 1800s. It's because it's an old-fashioned ideology for an old-fashioned world. It would never work in today's globalized world. Hell, it never worked period ...the fact it hasn't persisted is proof enough.
Anything printed on most (but not all) color printer can be traced back to the printer on which it was printed (serial number) and often date stamp as well.
The EURion pattern, with the circles, isn't exactly "microprinting" -- you can see it quite clearly without magnification on a lot of currencies. But there is also the later Digimarc system, and we don't know exactly how it works. Maybe somebody will reverse engineer the detection software.
Edit: as I noted on the list of printers page, we think that newer printers are also doing something that we can't see, possibly based on perturbing dithering algorithms so that the dithering is different from printer to printer in a distinctive way. So when we didn't see yellow dots from newer printers, that doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't printing tracking codes. The reasons for thinking that tracking codes became more pervasive in newer printer models rather than being phased out are suggestions in documents obtained via FOIA, and rumors from people who worked in the industry.
Reverse engineer, apologies. The idea is to gain understanding, not simply to get a disassembly (that's an automated process and a 1:1 correspondence between binary and assembly code remains).
The harder part is to figure out what it all does.
What's worse is that some printers won't print black and white because yellow is missing. Can't have the tracking missing I guess. I guess you could fill the yellow tank with black ink and them add some noise.
The question I've been posing, but can't seem to find an answer: is there any way around this? Are there brands we know don't have these? Do all types of printers have them, or just some? Do we have to go back to dot matrix printers? (Just kidding on the last one.)
it was the same with typewriters; one could track the exact typewriter model by patterns on the printed text.
In the Soviet Union and other communist countries the state security service would have samples of the print on all typewriters in the country. So they had the ability to track the typewriter if you would get an idea to write a flier or manuscript against the government. (In the movie 'The lives of others' they had a Stasi man who could identify all typewriters in east germany)
Now i thought that that was all due to the paranoid nature of Stalinism; it never appeared to me that western typewriters could also be identified by their type and that this was probably an intended feature, not just a bug. Now the same principle was later applied to laser printers ...
That sounds a bit different, since this case is talking about printers that are specifically enabled in order to provide tracking capability, rather than tracking capability being developed independently. More sinister, less clever.
I had a friend who got a visit from the Secret Service a couple decades ago because of this. He's a friend, so I didn't press him on what happened, but this sort of thing isn't at all new.
He is discussing it and contributes the fact that this has been going on for some time without any push to shut down the discussion or to decrease your concern. It's simply a fact added to the pile.
I'm certain thats doable, but is there a guarantee that the watermark is in a fixed location? I would think the software would adjust placement to avoid being drowned out by blocks of yellow, etc.
Additionally, if the tracking dots use a specific shade of yellow, they could identify others that aren't the same shade. Still, I guess you could test the shading or placement theory easily with several printed examples.
(The original definition is "functionality that a technology developer will charge users to not include", but that might suggest that a product version without the antifeature is always available, which is not necessarily true, especially for DRM and surveillance-related antifeatures. A more general definition might be a product feature that required a deliberate effort on the manufacturer's part to include and that users view as decreasing the product's value.)
You're getting more than you paid for, and it more or less prints "as advertised". It's diabolical, but it's unlikely there's nothing remotely at the "breach of contract" level.
There were rumors that they caught the BTK killer due to the hidden printer dots at the church where he served, but it was actually meta data left on the floppy disc that did him in...
"They also found that the disk had been used at the Christ Lutheran Church and the Park City library."
“It’s pretty basic stuff,” Landwehr says about the reconstruction of the deleted information. “Anybody who knows anything about computers could figure it out.”
I did a few second search and it looks like he deleted a file (which is easily recoverable if the disk wasn't intentionally rewritten several times to prevent it) and it was a Microsoft Word file that had been edited by "Dennis" on a computer belonging to "Christ Lutheran Church". There are dozens of services that will recover lost data for you today on SD Cards or Hard Drives.. the FBI surely had that capability.
https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2005/10/16