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> So how do you protect yourself?

I don't believe any of the technical solutions mentioned in this thread; using a dumb phone, multiple identities and/or false data for plausible deniability, wiping the phone before passing the border, is viable for a larger number of people. They also fail once a border agent insists on accessing an email account for which they know you have the password.

The only protection is through protecting people legally. Once the border agencies can insist on accessing your email and cloud storage before letting you enter the country it seems like any arbitrary thought crime can deny you access.



> So how do you protect yourself?

"Sorry, sir, I use a password keeper and left the password file at home. I do not have any passwords with me."

That's not a lie, and I would love for them to explain to the judge if they did ever choose to detain you as to how this is not a valid and legal excuse and non-cooperation in any way.

And if you are in doubt about saying something like this, actually use a password keeper, it's a good security practice.

Further, do not bring any electronic device with you.


Meanwhile on HN: "man jailed indefinitely for not decrypting hard drives": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728


That's a different issue. When a court orders you to do something, then they would tell you to go back home and get the passwords or allow you the ability to do that. It's not reasonable for border security to expect you to carry your passwords with you at all time for all the services you use. It's a security risk to you, from third parties which might want to steal your data. Like for instance robbers that might force you to divulge your banking information at gun point.


What does "reasonable" have to do with CBP? They can detain you for a surprisingly long time or deport you (complete with banning you from further entry if you're not actually a US national) for failure to comply.


Except you probably have a password manager client app on your phone so you can look up and enter any passwords you need for your own convenience.


Except I don't have my phone. Why don't I have my phone? Because I don't want it to be stolen and I have no need for it where I am going. I want to unplug and relax, not be on call all the time.


Wrong answer, citizen, the state requires you to carry a phone!


Since you probably have such an app, then you possibly don't have it.


Or just say you forgot the password.


Just don't give them any passwords or unlock anything if you are a US citizen. Let them try to detain a US citizen indefinitely for it.


CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. Fun fact: if you are mistakenly placed in immigration detention, you're not automatically entitled to a hearing until 6 months have passed, so you'd better hope someone knows to file a habeas petition on your behalf.

In fact you're not automatically entitled to a hearing at all, but that was the working compromise established last time this ended up in court. Given the new administration's adversarial posture towards the judicial branch on the question of immigration reviewability, this is likely to change for the worse.

. https://www.law360.com/articles/720066/2nd-circ-sets-6-month...


> CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course.

And to think that there are actually still people attracted to such a system and wanting to immigrate. It is amazing.


The US (and a large number of companies built around helping people emigrate to the US) puts a lot of effort into marketing, and frankly speaking, it's not a lot worse than most places people emigrate to the US from.


Exactly. It's your constitutional right as a US citizen to tell any Law Enforcement agent to go fuck themselves.

1. They need a warrant to search your phone if you don't voluntary give them access.

2. Even if they have a warrant, you can plead 5th and just not give them the pin.

The American way is all about not trusting the government, believing in conspiracy theories, and stocking up on ammo.


Nope. I was flagged for "secondary inspection" at the southern border. (Mind you, I am as white as you can get). Long story, short. I acted like a bit of an entitled jerk, and was surrounded by 15 CBP agents, had my head slammed on a metal table, cuffed, phone and wallet taken, and then I was taken to a windowless room (with a couple of older Hispanic guys who I remember thinking could be "disappeared" fairly easily without anyone knowing). I asked for my phone to make a call, but was denied. When I demanded rights, an agent told me that they didn't apply at the border and referred me to some Patriot Act notices on the wall. I felt powerless, and completely at their mercy. The agents told me that they would be searching my car without me authorizing it or being present (I remember thinking that they could plant something and notify CHP to pick me up a few miles up the road). After discussing things with the supervisor, I was let go but had my SENTRI pass revoked. Later, I contacted some lawyers who all advised that at the border, I didn't have the same rights, and that I had no case of any sort. Now, I am grateful it happened to me (because I stopped acting like an entitled asshole), but it left me feeling a whole lot less free, and it makes me feel more uncomfortable to travel internationally, which is a shame.


You are correct that you pretty much have no rights at the border.

The moment you step outside the US, you can be killed by US a drone strike, or the CPB agent can simply shoot you if they wish.

It's a broken hole in our system that needs to change, but don't expect any change for at least 2-4 years.


>Why didn't Obama do anything about it?

Responding to the above, Obama did do something: he presided over the first extrajudicial assassination of a US citizen by drone strike.


One that pledged allegiance to a foreign "state" that engages in violence?

I fail to see the problem


The fifth amendment is of course broad, but is it so broad that the president signing a piece of paper can be considered due process?

Even if everyone has perfect intentions (doubtful), you need checks and balances to prevent human error.


I'm sure the area where US laws apply can be discussed to greater lengths, but they're not applicable outside of the (geographical) US, regardless if you're a citizen or not. Even if the subject of the action is an US citizen. (except for the taxation of non-resident citizens, which is a whole can of worms I'm sure)

This is for better or worse.

Extra-judicial killings happen a lot. In the case of self-defense for example. "Cop thought the suspect had a gun" is a mistake that happens often, but it can be legitimate as well.


I don't know why you think your constitutional rights disappear outside the geographic US. That is not the case. Constitutional rights protect citizens from our government regardless of their physical location. Indeed, geography was not a part of the Obama administration's justification.

As for your other point, self defense is a long established affirmative defense for murder, yes. However that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

If the government has a case to kill a citizen, that case needs to be made in court and evaluated by a jury of peers.


> Constitutional rights protect citizens from our government regardless of their physical location.

Well, the constitution is the rules and limits that apply to the US Government mainly (for the benefit of not only the US citizens).

However the Constitution is pretty much defined as the Law of the Land (Article VI https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_St... )

And if the case is as you describe then it seems it's a case for a federal prosecutor to make in Court.


By your logic, it's acceptable for the PM of Italy to order the assassination of an Italian-American dual citizen because that Italian has pledged allegiance to a foreign state that engages in violence?


If that dual citizen is actively engaging in such violence and Italy is a (potential) target of such violence, and his activities are happening outside Italy, yes.

> "Where high-level government officials have determined that a capture operation is infeasible and that the targeted person is part of a dangerous enemy force and is engaged in activities that pose a continued and imminent threat to US persons or interests."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justificati...


Because it was missing due process?


>It's a broken hole in our system that needs to change, but don't expect any change for at least 2-4 years.

Why didn't Obama do anything about it?


Frankly, despite initial campaign promises during his first campaign, hes been as bad or worse than the GWB administration in a number of ways. Why he got a pass on a lot of it is beyond me.


We get our information mainly from the media. They decide what the majority of the country knows and doesn't know, and who gets a pass and who doesn't, because most of us don't have the time or desire to obtain first-hand knowledge of what's going on in the world.

I didn't vote for President in the last election, because he became a clown with his antics and she (IMO) is a crook. I'm not partial to one side or the other: I hate all politicians equally.

I'd like to hear facts about what is happening in the new administration, but have had to stop listening to all media because it is so incredibly lopsided it's infuriating and only gets me agitated.

Whereas the media used to report primarily facts, it seems to me that now they primarily report opinions, speculations, and prophecies. We're not able to form our own opinions on issues based on facts, because we don't hear many facts, and the facts we do hear are definitely not in any kind of balance on the many sides of complex issues.


I have to agree, though I did vote, I voted libertarian (not that I really like Gary Johnson all that much either). I can't watch/read most "news" without at least half of it pissing me off in one way or another. On the one hand, I don't like Trump all that much. On the other, I don't like all the fluffed up reporting on crap that the past administration did too. Or at least the over-inflated sense of how it's so much worse now.

In general, I'd love to see us reduce our foreign military presence by 85%, and cut military spending by over 50%. Not counting other areas of the govt I'd love to see deep cuts into. End the war on drugs. End privatized prisons. The list goes on.

Sorry for the bit of a rant... I'm just kind of sick of it all, and that's only loosely following anything.


2-4 years is extremely optimistic, but I think this is an issue that (finally) has drawn more attention than usual, so there is a chance there will be some work towards its resolution.


The CPB agent can just shoot you if he wishes? That's some seriously ridiculous hyperbole. No American is getting shot by border agents on a whim.


Until it actually happens.


It's not happening now, but it would still be legal.


IIRC if you are within 100 miles of the (actual) border or an international airport then are you considered to be entering/leaving the US and can be searched without a warrant.

https://www.wired.com/2008/10/aclu-assails-10/

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception


Remember that the ACLU is a political organization and has its own spin on things. Just like any other org like the EFF, NRA, etc.

In this case, the ACLU article on this topic is weasel worded and needs to be read carefully so you can seperate implication from fact.


can you point to an example?


In the linked ACLU post, the 2nd-5th bullets are a great example. The second bullet specifically enumerates the government position on border searches. The 4th and 5th bullets detail what the Border Patrol can do away from the immediate vicinity of the border.

But the 3rd bullet, which is key to the notion of the 100 mile "constitution free zone", is more mysterious. It states that Customs has "broad—though not limitless—powers" without detailing them.

Many readers of this ACLU post and coverage of it have come away with a false idea that Customs and Border Protection has some magic wand. The facts are very different.

Here are the referenced sections, forgive any formatting issues.

> - According to the government, however, these basic constitutional principles do not apply fully at our borders. For example, at border crossings (also called "ports of entry"), federal authorities do not need a warrant or even suspicion of wrongdoing to justify conducting what courts have called a "routine search," such as searching luggage or a vehicle.

> -Even in places far removed from the border, deep into the interior of the country, immigration officials enjoy broad—though not limitless—powers. Specifically, federal regulations give U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) authority to operate within 100 miles of any U.S. "external boundary."

> -In this 100-mile zone, Border Patrol agents have certain extra-Constitutional powers. For instance, Border Patrol can operate immigration checkpoints.

> - Border Patrol, nevertheless, cannot pull anyone over without "reasonable suspicion" of an immigration violation or crime (reasonable suspicion is more than just a "hunch"). Similarly, Border Patrol cannot search vehicles in the 100-mile zone without a warrant or "probable cause" (a reasonable belief, based on the circumstances, that an immigration violation or crime has likely occurred).


I don't understand your point. The fourth and fifth bullet points are intended precisely to make the third bullet point concrete.

Technically they should probably have been formatted as subbullets of the third point, but other than that I don't see anything wrong.

Also, your para "Many readers … The facts are very different." — not apparently backed up by any details — is exactly the kind of weasel wording you decry. In fact, I think I'm being trolled here.


  Even if they have a warrant, you can plead 5th and just not give them the pin.
And then languish in jail for a year plus? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728


Not the same kind of case, since there was an issued warrant. This isn't the same type of case at all.


It's the same. The contention is that unlocking the phone yourself does not require actually providing your PIN. You're only being required to provide your phone in an unlocked state.


They do not need a warrant at the border.


Yup... there is even a case on this exact point. TLDR; drug smuggler crossed the board and went through customs. He didn't get searched. Then as he was leaving the customs area, on the U.S. side of customs, the police performed a warrant-less search. Prosecutor argued the search was legal because he was in the process of entering the country and citizens don't have a right against search upon entry to the U.S. The court said that the search would have been legal had they done the search before going through customs. But once he got through customs, the search was no longer legal as he had his 4th amendment protections at that point.


Are you sure about this? Usually you can be stopped and searched quite far inland as long as they can prove that you recently crossed the border. This is often used to take smugglers.


They need reasonable suspicion and a link to the crossing.

For example, if you were an American, white college kid crossing the Canadian border into New York at a weird time, and behave in a manner that seems nervous or evasive, You're going to attract interest. If you start heading toward the Mohawk Indian reservation, you're going to get stopped as odds are good you're smuggling something.


That not applicable at the US borders.


Believing in conspiracy theories is, ironically, a way of attributing more power to the state/elite than it actually has.

You're celebrating pathological thinking, especially when you claim that stocking up on ammo contributes to the functioning of a nation (in the loosest sense of "nation"). The days of militias are long gone.


> The days of militias are long gone.

That's an interesting position, considering my state is still funding an organized state militia: http://www.vdf.virginia.gov/


I wouldn't want to be that test case for the Trump administration.


Wasn't this guy a US citizen and didn't he still feel too scared to do this?


Yes, which makes this especially abhorrent. The government insists the searches are only of "visitors."

Nobody has an obligation to refuse to comply (and be detained and/or jailed) but if put in this situation I would refuse. I'm not willingly giving up my rights without a court compelling me.


a court can't compell you to give up your rights, otherwise they wouldn't be rights.

but we already know there are nonrights at the border.


Well... sure. Problem is I don't have 6 weeks to sit in a detention cell waiting for the ACLU to clear my case.


That beats doing real time for the cleartext in your phone.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438...


What if you simply don't have a facebook account. If I want to cross the USA border will they believe me?


Lying to, or misleading a border agent is a felony in the US.


lying to ANY federal agent is illegal.




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