Hi, I am the creator of the language, my name is Gabor. You can ask questions if you like.
To answer some:
- Yes, we use machine translations, they serve as an example, they are far from perfect. Some language files are translated by native speakers. I think the website needs to be more clear about this.
- I use gendered language because coding is a men's job, women belong in the kitchen! ;-). No, just joking. Women are also welcome to become Citrine users. I just think the opening sentence is beautiful, it combines the concepts of male and female in a lovely, natural way ignoring today's PC-bullshit.
- No, Emoji-language is not allowed in the core. I only support natural languages. Endangered languages (EGIDS6 and higher) are also welcome. There is no limit.
I understand that there will be a lot of hate because of this language. I even received death threats over it. When a young developer I worked with brought up the idea I even laughed at him. However as I thought it over, the idea began to grow on me and I longed for a purely Dutch programming language (I had created one as a child for the C64 by just overriding the BASIC tokens). I figured that, if I longed for such a thing, maybe others do as well. I decided to share my code after some years just to give anyone interested some kind of basis or just discuss it.
It is important to realize that Citrine is trying to strike a balance. Programs will never read like a book. However, having a programming language using your own words and grammar just feels better and makes me more productive, I also tend to make fewer mistakes. The problem with just mixing Dutch with English programming languages is that is extremely ugly, also you never know when it's justified to use Dutch or English, especially when interacting with established English conventions, 3rd party software libraries or embedded languages in code (like shell or SQL). The other solution, translating everything into English is just horrible. I have encountered so many bugs that stemmed from miscommunication because of translation issues to English that I believe this will become a dead end eventually. One technique I am working on, that might help to improve the readability even further is simple macro processing, so you can say 'create a new Object' instead of 'Object new'.
Anyway, if you have any questions let me know, always happy to answer ;-)
“I use gendered language because coding is a men's job, women belong in the kitchen! ;-). No, just joking. Women are also welcome to become Citrine users. I just think the opening sentence is beautiful, it combines the concepts of male and female in a lovely, natural way ignoring today's PC-bullshit.”
Dude, really. If you gave a crap about effective communication you would not just have said that.
Hell, you would not even have thought of saying that; never mind typing it, reading it back to yourself, and then hitting Post cos you still think it’s a good idea. SMH
Your enthusiasm is admirable but your limited expertise is clearly showing. Instead of saying that you’re here to answer our questions, you should be the one who’s listening to our criticisms and then asking searching questions of us. A bit more humility and a lot less hubris. You and your product will be a lot better for it.
Go read the entire thread then, because that’s all you’ll be getting out of me and probably quite a few others now thanks to your awful attitude.
Programmers like you are the reason I finally taught myself how to code, so I would never have to depend on your sort for anything. You’re a smug, condescending martinet with a grossly inflated sense of your own specialness, and the sooner you grow up/the world kicks you to the curb, the better.
So here’s me expressing my freedom of thought and expression by having nothing more to do with you.
I applaud your effort. Programmers, of all people, should understand the effect that language has on shaping thoughts.
My biggest question is - why couple a new programming language and the translation system? Either system alone would be difficult to get a foothold. Wouldn't you be better off picking an existing programming language that you really like - one with good semantics and lots of libraries - and implementing the translation system on top of that? Some sort of Lisp would seem to be a natural fit. What does your language offer to someone who is already comfortable with English-based programming languages?
(sorry for double-commenting, but I didn't want to start a merged thread for two very different topics)
When I created Citrine the original purpose was not to make it localized, just as readable as possible. However, the language evolved into something different. At a certain point I figured that the grammar allows for a lot of flexibility which could be used to turn it into a localized language.
>I just think the opening sentence is beautiful, it combines the concepts of male and female in a lovely, natural way ignoring today's PC-bullshit.
Honestly, I am astonished that you can be so conscious of the effect of language on thinking in the context of programming, and yet so tone-deaf when writing your copy. This is not "today's PC bullshit", it is an effort to eradicate structural sexism going back at least half a century. It is not lovely and natural to use "man" as a default for "men and women" - it rings strangely to the modern ear, and you have attracted a number of comments about it. Maybe 40 years ago taking this position would have been forgivable, but in 2020 you are very much on the wrong side of this battle.
Love it. I phrased it this way just to trigger you. There is no structural sexism except maybe in some Islamic countries - but I don't hear anyone about that. Women are free to do whatever they want. If they feel offended by words they probably don't belong outside the house.
Well congrats on being a Grade-A douche. I strongly recommend you go find a new hobby—one you can play by yourself—because with salesmanship like that your project is already dead.
The Citrine license does not forbid women from using it, that would be true sexism. Abolishing words because of 'gendered language' is not something I believe in. I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of thought. Citrine is a project that cannot live without a free mind. As such, conforming to groupthink would kill Citrine and there would be nothing left to share anyway.
I admire your efforts, but it seems to me it would be easier just to get everyone on Earth to agree to speak the same language. That would merely be impossible.
To answer some:
- Yes, we use machine translations, they serve as an example, they are far from perfect. Some language files are translated by native speakers. I think the website needs to be more clear about this.
- I use gendered language because coding is a men's job, women belong in the kitchen! ;-). No, just joking. Women are also welcome to become Citrine users. I just think the opening sentence is beautiful, it combines the concepts of male and female in a lovely, natural way ignoring today's PC-bullshit.
- No, Emoji-language is not allowed in the core. I only support natural languages. Endangered languages (EGIDS6 and higher) are also welcome. There is no limit.
I understand that there will be a lot of hate because of this language. I even received death threats over it. When a young developer I worked with brought up the idea I even laughed at him. However as I thought it over, the idea began to grow on me and I longed for a purely Dutch programming language (I had created one as a child for the C64 by just overriding the BASIC tokens). I figured that, if I longed for such a thing, maybe others do as well. I decided to share my code after some years just to give anyone interested some kind of basis or just discuss it.
It is important to realize that Citrine is trying to strike a balance. Programs will never read like a book. However, having a programming language using your own words and grammar just feels better and makes me more productive, I also tend to make fewer mistakes. The problem with just mixing Dutch with English programming languages is that is extremely ugly, also you never know when it's justified to use Dutch or English, especially when interacting with established English conventions, 3rd party software libraries or embedded languages in code (like shell or SQL). The other solution, translating everything into English is just horrible. I have encountered so many bugs that stemmed from miscommunication because of translation issues to English that I believe this will become a dead end eventually. One technique I am working on, that might help to improve the readability even further is simple macro processing, so you can say 'create a new Object' instead of 'Object new'.
Anyway, if you have any questions let me know, always happy to answer ;-)