> Tesla’s reasoning for going away with a method universally used for signaling turn for decades is that it enables them to remove a physical part, the stalk, and it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.
That is some impressive levels of "we know better than you / everyone else" thinking.
Buying a Tesla is basically buying a Mac. You are not buying a car you are buying an appliance that happens to get you from point A to point B and provides neat new features. Unfortunately it makes it dangerous to do that…
Specifically, it's like buying the very first Mac, whose keyboard didn't have function or arrow keys, because Jobs believed people would use the mouse for that sort of thing.
This was, obviously, swiftly changed, and Macs soon had sensible keyboards. I'd be somewhat less certain that Teslas will soon have sensible controls.
Initially I thought this was a bit of a silly take, but then I thought about that MBP I had with a touchbar, no escape key, stupid arrow keys that you couldn't use by feel, and a keyboard where the keys regularly got stuck or fell off.
So you're saying there's hope for Tesla after all? The latest MBP might well be the best laptop Apple has ever built, and it's definitely a contender for best laptop anyone is selling. Though admittedly 'best' does vary somewhat with context.
Personally, i think Tesla have a chance to turn back. They still have brand recognition. If they manage to get their shit together and stop with the truck nonsense, improve on their older models (Put the buttons back!) and focus on battery size/weight, they can do it.
I'm really glad Tesla has shown their true self over the last few years. I've been in "maybe get a new car in a year or so" mode for a few years but haven't pulled the trigger yet for a variety of reasons. When that conversation in my head started, Tesla was absolutely in the mix. Now? Maybe if you gave me one for free, but I'm sure not buying one.
It's not about trim - it's about a car that's a car, not a computer with wheels. Even the iPhone understood that it was first and foremost a phone. Apple had to create new human-machine interfaces for the iPhone because it was a new form factor demanding a new means of interaction. A Tesla does not. It's a car. We've spent 100 years refining and honing the interface. But of course they know better. They're smart, everybody else is stupid - and that is why I don't like Tesla.
You're just regurgitating same mass media sewer. Tesla absolutely nailed the UX. Everyone else who is trying to copy it is failing just like Android used to copy Apple in early days.
If you wanna buy something that's technically behind ~10 years, has less gear and costs more - all the best to you. Just don't be surprised by people make fun of you.
Anyone who is remotely online is basically forced to have extremely strong opinions about Tesla because Elon can't help but put himself in almost every piece of discourse, making him and Tesla objectionable to many people for many reasons.
The cost seems to be turning into less of an issue - the Model 3 was for a while the best priced EV here (Australia) but now there are several Chinese options that are more affordable for not much less on the feature side, and without any of the dumb stuff like no stalk for turn signals.
Yes we too have Chinese cars in NZ. They are pretty well built, albeit lame tech. The cheapness comes from the fact they are much smaller. Thats the market segment BYD is winning, they are not even competing with Tesla.
I didn't buy a Tesla but bought a BEV. And I really miss the charging network during long vacations. Tesla seems to be the only player that has figured that out. Oh, and the other tech stack stuff (like actually using UWB for unlocking the car via phone), but there are plenty of things not to like about it.
It is more like buying a cheap laptop and then getting the kind of attitude Apple has towards quality issues in their products.
In terms of build quality, I wouldn't exactly say that Tesla have a "premium" product. Even after more than a decade in the mainstream market and impressive sales numbers.
Are you sure we are looking at the same Apple that released Macbook with one usb c port, a keyboard that everyone hated, and basically doesn’t care about thermal designs ?
I’m a Mac user but that doesn’t mean I am oblivious about their faults.
Oh, I have no illusions about Macs. There's a reason I didn't buy a new laptop for 5 years. But if you look at the macs since the M1, they actually seem to be back to decent build quality.
I own a M1 Max MacBook Pro 14.2 it is the best computer I have ever owned. Their build quality I haven't questioned its really their weird design choices. Although, I'm not sure why it didn't come out with Wifi 6E and faster SD card slot but those are nitpicks and I don't use SD cards (I did put in a flush SD card to give me a 512gb of extra storage).
What's frustrating is that the pre-2024 Model 3 and Ys are nearly peak car. Their only faults are all self imposed design decisions.
Using a more traditional cruise control (lane keep, speed keep etc) and breaking out some of the climate controls as physical buttons are basically the only things I'd change.
Otherwise the cars are basically the perfect expression of a "Car". They're smooth, quiet, quick, reasonably comfortable and inexpensive and behave exactly as you'd expect a modern car to behave.
Oh, I suppose their suspension leaves a little to be desired? Nit picking at that point though.
Am I misreading the article or is the headline sensationalist?
Summary: Seems like 1 driving instructor decided not to buy a new Tesla for his school. He posted in a group of driving instructors and many agreed.
I guess the headline is technically correct, but it kind of reads like a government ‘banned’ the vehicles.
Also not sure about the logic of the driving instructors. Shouldn’t a difficult to use car that is quite common be a good candidate for a driving school vehicle? Kids whose families have Teslas will pass their driving exam on a car they will never use, then go drive their parent’s Tesla at a lower level of ability in the real world.
Sure, you have to pick one car for any given person to pass a test on, but this whole article seems overblown, and I’m never buying a Tesla as a starting bias.
Speaking of bad turn signals (though in this case for other drivers, and not the driver of the vehicle), can we make it illegal for cars to only indicate from their rear by blinking the entire brake light? I think I've heard it's a requirement in some countries for the rear indicators to use the amber light alongside the brake lights, which makes a lot of sense because making the brake light serve double duty is frequently confusing and dangerous. You have to stare at the light for a couple of seconds to confirm the light is blinking because the person is signalling, and not because they tapped their brakes and you only saw a change.
>>can we make it illegal for cars to only indicate from their rear by blinking the entire brake light?
That's one of(many different) things that bother me about American cars - like who thought this was a good idea??? Was it to save money? Literally everyone else in the world uses a separate amber bulb in the rear to indicate.
Those cars should be modified to have separate brake/turn lights before being registered in Europe, if that didn't happen then it wasn't done fully legally(I know, I actually have a US-imported car, it had to have the rear lights cluster modified before registration book could be issued).
They are rare, but I see some from times to times. I am in switzerland, where legislation might be slightly different from EU. But they could also be illegal or just not yet modified.
> You have to stare at the light for a couple of seconds to confirm the light is blinking because the person is signalling, and not because they tapped their brakes and you only saw a change.
I've been driving a long time, and this hasn't ever been a problem in my experience. If someone taps the brakes, both lights come on. So the only time there is ambiguity is when a brake light is burned out. Not especially common now that everyone has been switching to LEDs.
And if it takes a couple seconds to blink, something is very wrong with the car.
> [Tesla] believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving
That is the reason they went out of their way to make an awful turn signal interface?! Yeesh, ok then. There are enough other things I hate about their UX that I won't be buying a Tesla anyway, but if I were on the fence about one these silly turn buttons would be enough to turn me off.
Just to get this right. The turn signal is actually "on the wheel"? So it turns with the wheel? How is that even a thing? How are you supposed to press the button if you are in a curve? The roundabout example is a good one, there is about one every 100m here, but there are are also many highway exits which curves a lot (180° or even 270° turn) and you have two lane you have to indicate where you go.
I am not against trying new things, it seems quite dangerous. I am not surprised it got banned from driving school. But I am surprised it was allowed my regulators.
I didn't understand the roundabout example. I'd have expected having the buttons on the wheel to actually make the roundabout situation easier.
When I'm driving straight I can reach the turn signal stalk by extending a couple fingers while still keeping that hand holding the steering wheel with the rest of my fingers.
If I'm in a turn the wheel is rotated, and my hand might no longer be close enough to the stalk to reach it just by extending a couple of fingers. I might have to let go of the wheel with that hand.
If the buttons are on the wheel their position relative to my hand won't change when I turn the wheel, so it should be possible to make wheel based buttons that are equally easy to use and don't require releasing the wheel regardless of whether you are going straight or turning.
I can see though that it might depend on the tightness of the turn. If you are in a tight enough turn that the wheel was turned far enough that you needed to reposition your hands and then you needed to signal I think the stalk would win. With the stalk, (1) it is likely near the new position of your hands so you might be able to reach it without losing your grip, and (2) even if it is not near your hands it is in a fixed position in space relative to you so it is easy to go there.
If they want to get rid of the stalk I wonder if they considered foot switches? I remember they were fairly common up until at least the '60s for high/low beam switches, so foot switches would not be totally new territory.
In a roundabout you nearly always need to reposition your hands. At least in the smaller ones there is around here. And the turn signal is important, because many roundabout have 2 lanes, and if you are in the inner lane, you really need to indicate you want to exit. Also, my technique is to keep my left hand fixed relative to the car (thus near the stalk), and grab the wheel with the right one, the wheel then slide in my left hand and if I need more force, I close my left fist on the wheel and I have one hand at the best possible position to control the wheel with two hands. Anyway, I would really hate having buttons moving with the wheel.
Apple used to get a lot of slack for removing things- USB-A, Headphones, CD Drive, Network Jack, etc... But in the end, many (but not all) of those things ended up being totally unnecessary - they were perhaps just a year or so ahead of their time.
That being said, making a turn signal a screen button? Unless AI can replace all of this soon, which I think is not the case (and not the case for the 4th year in a row). I think this is NOT a good decision like the ones Apple makes every few years.
This is less like getting rid of an obsolete standard and more like your mouse sensitivity now changes based on where it is on the screen (except in this example if you misclick you risk someone getting hurt or killed).
It's just making an easy task you need to do harder for no reason in a context where making mistakes can have dire consequences.
Also I still use USB A, headphone jacks, and network jacks regularly on my devices.
For what it's worth, there are several municipalities that have different and conflicting rules about signalling in or with roundabouts than the provincial rules. So there is legitimate confusion about which rules to follow.
At least, in Ontario. The provincial police will give you a different answer from municipal police, and I've gotten a different answer still from MoT folks.
In practice, another issue I have seen is that some folks see any use of a signal near a roundabout as an indication that you are trying to "change lanes", which leads to a honk fest and more confusion immediately. So doing the "right thing" approaching or exiting a roundabout can lead to more confusion and dangerous situations than just... not signaling, unfortunately.
Love those people that indicate left going into a roundabout, by the time I see you I don't know where you started indicating left so I have no idea where you're going :D
Let's say you enter at 6 o'clock, indicating left to leave the roundabout at 9 o'clock. The car seeing you at 12 o'clock doesn't know if your "left blinking" means you exit at 12 o'clock, 9 o'clock or even 3 o'clock.
Wouldn't it be better to just indicate right when leaving the roundabout, that way no one can get confused?
I see, what I see here is people leaving the left blinker on the whole time like I described. In your example, what's the purpose of left blinking between 6 and 5:30 then, it's the only path you could possibly take so is there a need for indicating at all?
I don't know, it was just what I was taught. It certainly is useful for 2 lane roundabouts where left turners go into the inside lane, so probably is maintained for consistency with smaller roundabouts.
I don’t drive, so I’m a little unclear as to what the issue is with Tesla’s force-touch turn signals specifically in roundabouts. The article only states that it’s a problem, but not how it’s a problem. Could anyone elaborate?
To be clear - I can understand why this design is awful more generally. What I don’t understand is the problem it poses specifically in roundabouts since that seems to be the central point of the article.
Roundabouts require turning for an extended period of time. During the turn your hands are often required to be in a non-standard position. By attaching the turn signal to the front of the wheel, you now need to hunt for it's position and calculate it's orientation (if the wheel is upside down, the left turn signal is on the right). The stalk stays in one place so you can develop muscle memory easier.
If your wheel is turned because you are in a curve, your “right turn” button will be on top or maybe even on the left of the wheel, depending on how sharp the curve is. This can be disorienting and cause you to look away from the road and at your wheel to figure out where it is. The turn signal stalk is always in the same place regardless of your wheel turn angle because it attaches to the steering wheel column rather than to the wheel itself.
Because on a roundabout you have to activate the turn signal while turning the other way. If the turn signal is on the steering wheel, it's going to be hard to find it and press the right way.
On a small roundabout, it's a tighter turn. You might need to keep the wheel turned more than 90°. The left and right signals will be in the wrong order, and it will be confusing to hit the right one at the right time.
With a stick that, uh, sticks out, it's easy to trip it in the right direction with your finger as you turn without taking your hand off the wheel. My guess is that using a "force touch" button will need you to take your hand off the wheel during a turn to press the button, and possibly even figure out which button (left or right) to press. All this is speculation on my part, of course.
The turn signal buttons are on the steering wheel, which means that if you're trying to press those buttons while the wheel is already being turned (most notably in a roundabout) then there is no way to know where the buttons are located other than by looking at the steering wheel.
Using touch interfaces whilst driving is very difficult, you generally have to look at the button, taking your eyes off the road, to press the right thing. Tesla also put both indicator buttons on the same side of the steering wheel, it’s not naturally intuitive at all.
Controls that change position in a vehicle require you to pay attention to them. As the controls in this car rotate with the steering input instead of remaining where they can be easily reached, they require you to pay attention to where they have move to so that they can be activated.
This is fine in regular driving situations but very difficult when you have multiple things going on at the same time that require your attention, such as when you are turning in a roundabout.
Normally this is activated with your left hand pushing a stalk up or down and is deeply ingrained in anyone trained in a modern vehicle.
It’s the same issue with touch screen inputs, but in this case it’s safety related and a common and critically used component required for safe operation of the vehicle.
Tesla’s insight about self-driving warranting the removal or rearrangement of input controls is a tad rich considering full self driving has been promised for years and has never been delivered. Back in 2016, Elon Musk claimed that Tesla cars could “drive autonomously with greater safety than a person. Right now.” Now in 2023 they are changing safety equipment for “full self driving” but still haven’t delivered FSD, but I’m sure you know the background.
You have to push a button on the wheel to activate the turn signal, but while the vehicle is turning, the wheel is at an angle, so the button is in a different place than usual. Both in space, and for people who shuffle their hands when they steer, potentially relative to the driver's hands as well. Makes it more difficult to activate than a standard stalk that's always in the same place, and is a larger target.
> he also found a specific case where they are dangerous: roundabouts/
In Norway, you have to indicate your exit in a roundabout by activating your turn signal, and he found it difficult while turning the steering wheel, which you have to do in a roundabout.
Not trying to be a dick, but if one has driven on a roundabout the issue is somewhat obvious - hence my comment above.
Secondly, my comment was posted before the parent had added a note about roundabout, so my assumption was that the parent had not seen that note from the article that I had copied above.
Have driven through a roundabout, still dont understand the issue.
I have thumb actuated volume buttons on my steering wheel, and can use them in a turn.
I actually could see the the lever being harder.
If im going through a roundabout with my hands at 12 and 4, a shifter at 9 seems hard to actuate.
Im guessing that roundabouts in Norway are tighter than im used to, and drivers have to reset their hand position away from the button to ergonomically maintain the turn?
I couldnt see how this detail isnt obvious from the article description, especially to someone who doesnt drive.
In a roundabout, I (so as to not generalize how people drive), move my hands on the steering while turning - as in turn and then then when hands cross, adjust and turn more. As in when going anti-clockwise on a U.S. roundabout, initially the right had is on right and left on left, but while turning the hands cross (left hand on right and right on left), so you adjust and lather-rinse-repeat. (I hope I'm making sense).
So: the signal/indicator lever is in a fixed position which can be pressed when the correct turn/exit comes. But if the buttons are on the steering (I'm assuming 2 buttons, touch or actual doesn't matter), their position changes as the steering is rotating so I will have to take my eyes off the road and see where in the steering is the correct button and then press it. For a right exit/turn, the button may be on right, or left, or top or bottom or anywhere on the steering depending on the amount of steering turn.
This is what makes it hard/inconvenient/dangerous.
that makes sense, I am also curious how this all translates to teslas with Yolk wheels where you don't reposition on the wheel (like pictured in the article)
The driving instructor believes that the capacitive buttons on the surface of the steering yoke are difficult to use while you are turning through a roundabout.
Given how tightly the US regulates controls in cars already, I'm a little surprised they don't have a regulation already that specifies how turn signal activation must work. I would have expected steering wheel buttons to clearly violate that reg.
* some driving schools in Norway banned newer Tesla models due to their unconventional force touch turn signals as some people claim they cause loss of focus in roundabouts
I mean, it seems pretty normal to have restrictions on cars for driving schools above and beyond that cars on the road. I remember I couldn't use my parents car for the driving tests, because it didn't have a center-mounted emergency brake.
It sparked a differnet looking into the market forces of selling electric vehicles to college students/driving schools etc based on some interesting points brought up.
What does your comment have to do with exploring thoughts, ideas, and such related to the inputs which originally drove (pun) this story to you?
If you look at any corporate fights, such as such-n-such [country|city|business] is at odds with [company|contract provider] - typically you can find secret incentives, contracts desires...
Forensic Financial Sentiment Analysis (Why the _fuck_ is X doing Y in Z deal) ((AH... it benefits ABC deals/business incentives/political pockets)
Its always corruption - regardless of your personal threshold for what that definition of coruption is
>>It sparked a differnet looking into the market forces of selling electric vehicles to college students/driving schools etc based on some interesting points brought up.
It did no such thing for me, sorry. Frankly I found it difficult to even establish what your point is in the first place.
>>What does your comment have to do with exploring thoughts, ideas, and such related to the inputs which originally drove (pun) this story to you?
It asks a very simple question - how are your points related to Norway, given that the subject matter are driving schools in Norway.
>>Its always corruption
Can you explain how corruption lead to Tesla removing the indicator stalk?
Forgive the convoluted answer - please let me know if you can make it more clear.
Requirements.txt:
>>But now some driving schools in Norway are banning new Tesla vehicles from being used due to a feature that Tesla first introduced in Model S and Model X
>>"Buying a Tesla is basically buying a Mac"
--
I dont have the energy at the time. Please make the following extrapolation:
---
A FUCKING TECHNICAL CAR COMPANY IS INTEGRATING IN FN NORWAY ON BEHAVIOUR/GOVERNMENT REQUIREMENTS TO YOUR PHYSICAL MOVEMENT BASED ON A CAR CONTROLLED BY GOVERNMENT POLICY (POLICE) ((POLICY ENFORMENT)) (((CHANGE THE POLICY, HENCE POLICE)))
>>A FUCKING TECHNICAL CAR COMPANY IS INTEGRATING IN FN NORWAY ON BEHAVIOUR/GOVERNMENT
Before you wrote this you already acknowledged that you misunderstood the entire situation in another comment, so why even bother to write this? You already know and acknowledged that this isn't true.
> What fees/monies did tesla pay to be included in driving schools? They are paying 'student drivers'
Huh?
Students are bringing their own cars (or their parents' cars) to driving school, and some of those cars are Tesla Model 3s.
The students (and/or their parents) are paying the school, not vice versa. Tesla is not paying the schools (or the students, or their parents) to bring those cars to driving school.
If they are not standardized and widely used, it isn't really all that useful to introduce yet another bit of complexity to what is usually going to be an already stressful activity (driving a car in traffic with very little experience).
Like if the turn signals were hidden on the main touchscreen, under options->settings->turn signals left/right, we would conclude that this is an absolutely idiotic design that shouldn't be allowed on the road, not just say "weird, maybe they should just teach that if it's so hard"?
The problem here is that you might have to use the turn signal mid-turn, and if the buttons are on the wheel it can be really confusing if not downright I possible to operate them when turning. Tesla isn't the first to do this - some Lambos/Ferraris also do this, good luck finding a single owner who doesn't hate it.
That is some impressive levels of "we know better than you / everyone else" thinking.