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Boxed – Things I learned after lying in an MRI machine for 30 hours (aethermug.com)
142 points by Brajeshwar on Sept 5, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 112 comments


> It's also how I realized that wearing special earplugs in noisy places helps me understand what the people around me are saying, mitigating a mild auditory processing disorder that I had never thought much about.

TIL this exists. Does anyone know where to read more about these plugs? What do they do? I always feel like I've got a harder time understanding people than everyone else


These are plugs with "flat attenuation" - the Etymotics custom-molded Musicians Earplugs are the classic ones (you go to an audiologist to make a mold) - they actually have a variety of attenuators, including a 25dB one (for drummers). I used a 15dB set for years and they were responsible for saving a lot of my hearing over countless shows, etc. Custom molds will lose their fit (your ear shape changes over time?) and when I was looking to replace them, I tested a bunch of the new plugs around, I found Earasers to be fit and work as well as my customs, at a much lower price (about $40).

In loud environments, I've definitely found the same phenomena, where it was much easier to understand people talking w/ the dB cut. I never thought this was a disorder, but rather a natural result of lowering the sound floor that made voices easier to pick up/distinguish?


Back when I went to bars with way too loud music I would always plug my ear when someone was shouting in it. Made it much easier to hear what they were saying. I don't think I have any auditory disorders, but you never know.


And I now know why you don’t have any auditory disorders


Have you seen how they help you measure your ear canal? https://www.earasers.net/products/earasers - brilliant. I'm thinking about ordering me a pair.


Warby Parker measured the distance between my pupils by having me upload a picture of my face while holding a credit card. I had to upload 3 pictures because I was too close or at a bad angle twice. I'm not sure if they had an algorithm or if they actually had people looking at the photos.


The online PD measurements are apparently not very good. I found this many years ago and it worked quite well: http://www.daniellivingston.com/2012/06/measuring-your-own-p...


The glasses seem fine, but the process did make me feel like measuring my own PD would have been easier. I've done it before for Oculus prescription lenses.


+1 for Etymotics, though I cheaped out and got the non-custom molded ones. But excellent for gigs. Which reminds me - I need to dig mine out for the Iron Maiden gig tonight.


Try any earplugs. They will all have that effect to some extent. In earplugs I can hear lyrics of a song that bus driver listens to, while without them I could not even tell if that's music or just noise.

A minor warning: experiencing "silence" makes a lot of people uneasy - in my opinion it's just a matter of practice, but some find it so unpleasant that they would never use earplugs by choice.

If you want to spend more cash I find Senner brand my sweet spot (doesn't block that much, reasonable cost, reusable). Alpine for a bit cheaper option with wide range of "dB's", good for concerts or motorycle, single pair will last long time. Or Loops, a lot of hype for these ones (people claim it does precisely what you are looking for), but it's overpriced in my opinion, and blocks a bit too much sound for me (to use in office, home, but perfect for a bar, commute, cinema). Also doesn't work well in wind. All 3 of those brands give fairly natural music experience, especially Senner.

I write "silence", as it's never silent. You will hear many annoying things (hums, squeaks, high pitched noise, pulse, feet on the ground). This things sometimes get into your head and you can't stop thinking about them. That's also why googling people's experience with tinnitus (that usually has no physical reason - at all, or one that you can fix - and is constant) is the most depressing thing I did last couple of years - highly recommend not investigating that too far.


> experiencing "silence" makes a lot of people uneasy

I remember riding a motorcycle with earplugs. (Uncertain if it is legal)

they were the 3m 33 db ones, and were the exact opposite of uneasy. Although I could hear things around me, the muting made the world quietly slide by, and I felt like I was in the center of an island of calm. It was very peaceful.

I suspect this is akin to driving a high-end car with NVH dialed into "ultra luxury silence", or sitting in the good seats of a jet where the sounds of the engines are far behind you and can't quite catch up.

In this ever more hectic world, I think silence (and freedom from other distractions) will be more and more a luxury.


Let me tell you about air pods pro, my friend.


Concert-oriented earplugs work fairly well for this, and they're pretty easy to find. They aren't safety-oriented so they don't cut by the ~30db of "normal" plugs, more often around 15db.

Generally they (claim to) try to sound more neutral so it's "just" a reduction in volume without much tone bias - personally I can't tell and haven't bothered to check, the small volume cut is all I really care about and any tone bias would be small enough that it's tough to notice anyway.

You can of course go much more specialized for many specific goals, but start cheap and simple. $20 or less is easy to find, though you might want to hunt around for comfort purposes (e.g. personally I only find completely soft ones comfortable for long periods, and anything with a long hard stem that pokes out gets bumped and seems like a safety hazard to me).


Big fan of https://www.etymotic.com/passive-hearing-protection/

I've also taken to wearing them while driving at highway speeds with the windows down (feels good man) after noticing how the wind noise was damaging my left ear especially.


+1 for the ER-20s. Although I cycle between them, some Howard Leight Laser Lites, and some titanium Flare Audio things (from when they launched originally.)


I've tried plenty of ear plugs for sleep, loud environments, and concerts. I'd stay clear of anything that's clearing putting most of the money into marketing like loop and talk to a audiologist or someone in the music industry. I ended up getting mine from "1of1 custom"[1] based on some research and references. They're a bit pricey, but based on the amount of loud environments I'm in they're literally life savers. I pair it with a sound level app made by NIOSH to let me know when I should put them in at bars/concerts.

[1] https://1of1custom.com/collections/custom-ear-plugs


I also want to read more about this. I recently purchased AirPods, which have several different settings. I’ve noticed that in very noisy environments I can hear voices way better when I have Noise Cancellation turned on. Maybe it shouldn’t be surprising. I could hear people close to me very well and I could even hear people 15 feet away. Conversations I don’t think I’ve ever been able to ease drop on with nothing in my ears.


I’m not sure it’s the same phenomena though.

Since Active noise canceling technology works by emitting "opposite" frequency of what the mic just listened, its limited by the processing delay so it is only really efficient in filtering sounds that are constant in time.

Turns out most sounds you’d want to filter are meeting this criteria so that’s ok.

But for sounds that aren’t constant like voices it still works but less.

So it’s not a surprise that the technology helps you isolate voices.


There are lots out there, but a popular model you could check out is the Loop Engage. They suppress certain frequencies more than others to help distinguish speech from background noise.


Very interesting, I see Loop is a Belgian company so it's not some distant shipping (I live a stone's throw from the border) and, for a niche (or so I thought) hearing aid I didn't expect a price tag far below a hundred bucks! Looks like good value if this does what it claims (https://www.loopearplugs.com/products/engage)


My partner’s been extremely happy with the Loops she’s bought, with the exception of the “Quiet 2 Plus” models that didn’t work for her.


I have the same thing, I can hear perfectly, but I can't understand speech over noise (I can't tell what people are saying). Flat response earplugs (musician earplugs, but not custom molded) negate this, and I can hear fine even in concerts, very comfortably.


There are a few brands I've seen. I have some "Eargasm Earplugs" that work well enough to make rock concerts enjoyable to me again.


Get a hearing test, you might need hearing aids.


It's not bad enough that I feel comfortable making use of the hearing tests that they afaik don't let you pay for (similar with vision tests), though I'd be curious to have it quantified indeed and so have considered it


Yeah check out how it works. In BC the hearing tests by an audiologist are offered for free by the places that sell hearing aids. In my experience there is no obligation to act on the result.

Vision is different here in


I never got earplugs, always this over-ear protection, you know, like you see in Topgun when the fighters take off from the platform.

It's easy to fall asleep inside, especially when they show videos of panda's eating via a tilted mirror they put above your eyes.


Yeah this is interesting. It makes sense...you're filtering out low level background noise so all you really get is the higher volume stuff like speech. Just like adjusting squelch on a radio.


I had a "brain MRI with contrast" scan last year, I wasn't offered earplugs. It wasn't that loud, I certainly wasn't in any discomfort.

With hindsight I'm not convinced about the informed consent re: the gadolinium infusion, but when you're lying prone in your underwear and the nurse is about to stick a line in your arm you don't feel particularly empowered...

[Apologies for the anecdote but] one (with hindsight) comedy moment was that they asked me/reminded me multiple times that no metal was allowed to be present but somehow neither they nor I clocked I was still wearing my wedding band ...

So I was lying there in the scanner and suddently I could feel the changes in the magnetic field via the ring on the ring finger of my left hand. A second or two of sheer panic as I wondered if I was about to see my finger get amputated and then I realised it was fine.

I should have known better, gold is diamagnetic.

[Decades ago] I spent my PhD years running my samples in various high-field NMRs. Nearly lost a set of house keys by taking them too close to a magnet, felt it trying to snatch them from me and managed to step away at the last minute....


There was an accident in a small Swedish hospital a few years ago, the patient scheduled for the MRI arrived with a 13 kg / 28 lbs weighted vest that he for some reason persuaded the MRI nurse to put on (I believe they were friends at the gym). The nurse did, but during the MRI session he left the monitoring room and went in to talk to the patient – and got pulled in by the magnetic field. Almost got strangled to death.

Alarm went off, security guards came running – and were also pulled in… In the end it took hours to get everybody out, the nurse and one or two of the security guards were injured, and the MRI machine was damaged.


Every MRI machine has an emergency button labeled "Quench" that releases its liquid helium. After so doing, the MRI loses its superconductivity and anyone pinned to the machine should be released.

Everyone I know who's worked with MRIs has been tempted to press the button!

https://mrimaster.com/mri-quench/


Interesting, I did not know that. However, the info also says:

> If a ferromagnetic object becomes stuck to the magnet, do not initiate a quench. Quenching will not necessarily release the object and can be extremely costly due to helium loss and potential system damage.


Isn’t that like on the order of tens of thousands of helium?


Wait so the people were pulled into the magnetic field? Were they wearing ferromagnetic metal items that were pulled in? And what does that have to do with the vest that the patient is wearing? If that is ferromagnetic, would that not just simply be stuck inside the MRI?


More info, for anyone interested:

https://www.auntminnieeurope.com/medical-legal-and-practice/...

> The nurse had tucked a total of 13 metal weights into the pockets of the vest, and it was these weights that pulled him into the scanner.


The nurse was wearing a weighted vest. Presumably the weights were metal of some sort. I can only imagine the sort of metal gear the security guards were wearing. Those guys love dangling stuff from their belt.


> I should have known better, gold is diamagnetic.

A gold ring is commonly 14k or 58.5% gold. You're lucky none of the other metals were magnetic. Sometimes nickel is included.


I had an MRI in February and specifically asked about my wedding ring, the tech said it wasn't an issue. We didn't discuss composition or any other details.


That's not good at all. There are absolutely rings that would cause a problem.


I've had multiple MRIs and I always ask about my two rings. They have always said they're fine. It feels like they know something I don't, and also feels sketchy.


I'm told that back on the day, a guy working at JEOL, on a small-bore research NMI, was wearing a metal-banded wristwatch. And when it started to heat up, he reflexively pulled his arm out of the bore very quickly.

That is a bad day at work.


What actually happened? I imagine he received a burn on his hand?


IIRC the story (I heard it second hand) he got a very nasty burn around his wrist.

He was quickly moving a conductive loop through a very strong magnetic field with a crazy large gradient.

(I'm not a physicist, but I assume that's the explanation for the burn.)


Makes sense. Thank you!


"Every four seconds or so, you see something new that you would never have guessed from the previous pictures. Each time it's a different cascade of activations in your brain, evoking random memories, creating unexpected connections, and stimulating thoughts that would never have occurred to you...What I need is an app that does nothing but show you truly random pictures, with no curation and no memetic aspirations. If you know of one, please let me know." I made a site quickly, that shows a random series of pictures from Unsplash, since I was curious to try this! https://random-photo-cascade.replit.app/ (Built with Replit's new agent feature, which is impressive for this kind of very constrained task)


And very quickly hit a rate limit apparently! Just switched to a different option without the unsplash limits.


This is cool! After watching for a few mins, seems to be heavily weighted towards nature, architecture, and generally artsy pictures. Wonder if there is a way to expand the scope/randomness even further


Old professor of mine used to put himself into his research MRI and perpetually scan his brain, claimed that the fields would help him think faster.

Blood is diamagnetic or paramagnetic depending on the oxygenation, and fields stronger than 2T have been shown to have effects on neural activity, so who knows maybe he was right.


It's been shown that humans can perceive the earth's magnetic field, which is weak. A 2T field doing "something" to us is plausible.


Curious if you could link some relevant papers on this?


see the references linked in 10.3389/fnins.2020.00419


Weak, yes, 1/30000th of a Tesla.


The RF exposure is pretty considerable. I'd bet on RF heating from multi-kw VHF pulses being a more likely cause of any measurable effects.


I wonder if he would achieve the same perceived effect being in a very bright room.


I always feel lightheaded around high field MR scanners


Fascinating, and also a potentially new origin story for Magneto in the next X-Men reboot.

There was a period of time where I had to get several MRI scans done, and I found them strangely relaxing. I was chastised several times for falling asleep (like the author), but I couldn't help it. I wasn't looking at anything but the ceiling of the machine, though.


Agreed - I've had a number of MRIs of the upper spine area and I find it extremely meditative...


Happens to me every time, it’s very relaxing. I get them both-yearly and get a p. good rest.

For shorter flights (1-2 hours) I usually fall asleep shortly after takeoff and wake up at landing. The a 320 neo I took recently actually felt too quiet to be relaxing.


> What I need is an app that does nothing but show you truly random pictures, with no curation and no memetic aspirations. If you know of one, please let me know.

This must exist, right?


Copy and paste this link to avoid HN Referer redirect: https://www.jwz.org/webcollage/

“WebCollage is a program that creates collages out of random images found on the Web. More images are being added to the collage about once a minute, so this page will reload itself periodically. Clicking on one of the images in the collage will take you to the page on which it was found.

It finds the images by feeding random words into various search engines, and pulling images (or sections of images) out of the pages returned.

WebCollage also works as a screen saver on MacOS and Unix: it is included with the XScreenSaver package.”


Curious -- why do you want to avoid the HN referer?


Because otherwise it shows you this https://cdn.jwz.org/images/2024/hn.png

The admins at jwz.org seem very mature.


> The admins at jwz.org seem very mature.

The admin at jwz.org thinks the same thing about the typical HN commenter, so I suppose it all washes out.


I'm glad they made their opinion known in such a clever way.


Because JWZ blocks links from HN.


Not too hard to find if you Google "website that shows random images". Examples: https://r.sine.com/index, https://picsum.photos/ (refresh to see new image)


Thanks folks! These are all great links. I'd seen that jwz link ages ago and completely forgotten about it.



https://archillect.com/archive? Sadly it seems to have gone quiet.


Came to the comments to look for this! I was immediately taken by the idea after reading about the author’s experience.


someone would need to make a little wrapper, but this redirects to a random image in wikimedia http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Random/File


I just wanted to say that anyone who stays voluntarily inside of a working MRI machine for any extended amount of time should get a presidential model as Hero of Science (if this medal doesn't exist, will please the congress create it just for this guy?).

The guy did willingly, for science, what for most people would be an unspeakable nightmare.

Thank you, Sir!


> for most people would be an unspeakable nightmare.

Most don’t find it that bad, and many enjoy it. It’s a bit like meditation, no one interferes and the drone of the scanner sends them to sleep. It’s warm and comfortable.

A significant number of first time patients have been told of the horrors of MRI and come pre-loaded with all sorts of misconceptions that helpful friends and family have passed on.

I’m an MR tech - we scan about 40-50 body regions per day and have 2 time slots for sedation (should it be needed). On average we would use light sedation 1 or 2 patients a day. I’ve been a volunteer for optimising a few sequences this month, and recommend it.


Idk, all of that also feels a bit like being in a coffin for some, especially if you're going reasonably far into the tube. I do get the sleepiness bit, though personally would prefer it cooler.


Ask to be cooler - the airflow can be increased and depending on how compliant the tech is, the heating (SAR) can be reduced. A slightly longer, but cooler scan. Every scanner I’ve ever seen has an option for a mirror to see out, so that may be an option. Most magnets from the last 5 years are about 1.8m long, which helps. Some research magnets or older ones are a fair bit longer.


Not saying I’m normal, but I really like sleeping in tight dark spaces. A couple times I’ve thought of building/buying a coffin-like thing specifically for sleeping in. The aversion is totally reasonable, just trying to say — for some people the coffin-ness is not a drawback


Do you enjoy counting things? Like, obsessively?

(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41422849)


You know, that’s the 18th time this has been suggested to me…


People are wired differently, many (most?) don’t have a difficult time with MRI machines. I tend to find them relaxing. The only annoyance is that you’re not allowed to move the body part being scanned.


indeed.

i thought i didn't have any phobia until i had a single experience with an MRI machine with no sedation. i came out with mild claustrophobia that only time has been healing.


I have only done 15mins at a stretch, but I did foam earplugs with noise cancelling headphones on top and it wasn’t too bad. I just pretended I was in some kind of sci-fi medical healing tube.


How did you get noise cancelling headphones in an MRI? Don't they contain metal, as well as magnetic coils?


Siemens have some in R and D that are going to be $50k ish. The ones OP wore will likely have been the standard ones which pipe music though fish tank tubing.


Those ones they usually use in MRIs aren't noise cancelling though.


Not only that, they are horribly ineffective as hearing protective. Wear earplugs when getting an MRI scan.


In MRIs I fall asleep faster than in most other places. I don't know why, but that's how it is


Me too! They have to wake me up sometimes, so I can stay still :D


I remember when I had a brain scan, they put my head in some sort of fixture and I tried hard to stay awake. Then I fell asleep, noticed that my head is somehow trapped, woke up scared and twitched a lot. That was a really challenging scan


I'm surprised to see so many people speaking negatively of the experience. I find being MRIed pleasant.


MRIs are astonishingly musical. I spend a lot of time in them too and the sounds they produce are beautiful.


If you enjoy dubstep, you'll have quite a good time in the MRI machine


There are pulse sequences that make the machine play music - they get used in testing.

The first one that I'm aware that was created was Daisy, as an homage to the IBM 704.


I've had several MRIs. I like industrial and EBM.

No, it is very much not beautiful. It's like being inside a pneumatic drill. Horrible experience.

IME, IMHO, etc.


I’m an Indian Classical Music student, and studied tabla for many years. I dislike all electronic music in general. I think I’m hearing something else.


I've had an MRI twice, once for my wrist and another time for my shoulder.

The wrist experience was fine, I actually sat down with my hand inside of the extremely loud contraption.

The shoulder experience was a different matter entirely. I was in Vietnam during the pandemic, and injured my shoulder during a table tennis training session.

At the hospital they do the standard blood pressure/pulse routine, which went fine until the machine started beeping red, at which point the nurse arranged an emergency visit with a cardiologist as my standing heart rate was under 40 BPM.

I felt fine but the cardiologist said I had something called bradycardia, and was at risk of a massive coronary if I didn't take medication to speed up my heart rate.

I was understandably worried about my heart, but wanted to get my shoulder looked at, so into this long, thin spaceship-like tube I went...

and pretty much instantly freaked out :)

I pressed the panic button; a tech came in and said, "close your eyes before entering". That made all the difference, MRI went fine after that (well, despite how absurdly loud it is in there).

As for my heart, I've probably had this condition my whole life.


Sounds similar to experiences inside sensory deprivation chambers.

In the SF Bay Area, there’s a company called reboot floatation spa , where you can book time floating in body temperature epsom salts inside a box that blocks noise and light.

I also experienced intense visual imagery and extraordinary ability to concentrate on thoughts while my other senses were deprived. And then I got sleepy


I tried an Epsom salt deprivation chamber and while it was nice I did not experience any visual imagery or anything that wowing. I felt very relaxed and I became sleepy as well. I think it was for about an hour, maybe I should have booked a longer session?


I have also done a sensory deprivation chamber/float tank, but I mostly experienced nausea, from the miniscule amount of water movement. Otherwise it felt like a really bad night of insomnia - lying in bed and feeling trapped.


Thanks for writing about what was at times an unpleasant experience with such care and attention to detail


There's always this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bci68qKGrf8

"I met Jesus in an MRI machine"


181 views - 6 years ago.. how did you surface this?


Well, it wasn't easy.

Started early, over 15 years ago, way before 2018.

This is an artist whom we broadcast on a live show when I was on the radio.

Had no idea if he had anything on Youtube, thought it was worth checking :)

For those who didn't watch, TLDW he backslides . . .


I’ve had a lot of MRIs in the lead up to, and following the discovery of a SCI and something in my lower spine called “tarlov cysts”

I don’t know why, but I now find the sounds the machine makes comforting. I’ll often play YouTube videos of MRIs operating for background noise now and my partner thinks it’s super odd. She doesn’t find it pleasing at all, but I find it very pleasing. I find it soothing.


You might be a dialup modem


Last time I went into an MRI, I realized half way through that I had forgotten to take off my metal necklace. Thankfully it was silver - it was an extreme purity test.


Did it get noticeably hot? -- the changing fields from the gradient magnets will cause heating in conductive material.


Interesting, I don't remember it getting hot.


How do aphantastic people find things they're looking for if they can't think of what they look like?


They know it when they see it?


I can recognize my wife and son perfectly fine, I just can't make pictures of them in my mind.

Longer version: https://leanpub.com/aphantasia/read


I would love to know what this research surfaces about aphantasic brains and their opposites.


im still shocked that you can stand still for 30 hours. not one session i guess but its still hard




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