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“If a law is unjust a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so” - Thomas Jefferson


1. There is no evidence jefferson ever said this

2. There is no evidence anyone else ever said this, either

The closest you get is MLK.

See https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jeffers...

But MLK also talks about moral obligation and not other forms of obligation.

He was not trying to create a free for all where everyone gets to decide which laws are okay or not, because he (and jefferson) were not complete morons.


MLK was himself referencing Saint Augustine:

>Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

Considering that his rhetoric was very much based on Christianity, it's clear what standard of "unjust" he was applying.


> Considering that his rhetoric was very much based on Christianity, it's clear what standard of "unjust" he was applying.

Considering the diversity of standards of justice within the history of Christianity (which, in just the US, includes—relevant to this topic—MLK, sure, but also the Southern Baptist Convention, founded explicitly in support of slavery), I don't know that having rhetoric grounded in Christian theology tells much of substance about the standard of justice one is appealing to.


Touche, however there is plenty of evidence of people throughout history making this assertion, including MLK.

He was trying to create a more just, egalitarian society. I don't understand how you can consider acting in accordance with leading research on successful drug policy "moronic"?


Successful drug policy meaning what here?


Least amount of harm to both the individual and society as a whole whilst recognizing people's fundamental right to bodily autonomy.


Is it unjust to prohibit the sale of illegal drugs, weapons, etc.? Society has good reasons for regulating certain goods. I regularly see people in my community who are enslaved by fentanyl and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. The society I live in decided to make selling it illegal. What is unjust about that?


As I recall weapons weren't permitted on the platform.

The society didn't decide, the ruling class decided to use drug policy to attack their own citizens.

History shows that prohibition is an abject failure. The fent epidemic is symptomatic of this failed policy.

If they actually cared about the epidemic, addicts would have access to regulated, pharmaceutical grade heroin whilst also having ready access to treatment.

But then we'd have empty prisons and the police would be free to solve real crimes so we can't have that.


> addicts would have access to regulated, pharmaceutical grade heroin

We tried that, it was called the opioid epidemic and Purdue was the pharmacist. We had readily available, doctor-prescribed, high quality narcotics available to anyone who wanted them and the result was an epic disaster that cost thousands of lives.

> weapons weren't permitted on the platform

My mistake.


>We tried that, it was called the opioid epidemic and Purdue was the pharmacist.

Not really, this was a case of a private company deliberately pushing narcotics for profit without oversight or any associated increase in access to treatment options.

Now the "opioid epidemic" has been replaced with a "fentanyl epidemic" which is objectively a much more dangerous drug with absolutely no regulation and murderous cartels instead of doctors - and we're still throwing people in prison for the crime of being addicts rather than treating it as a medical issue.

I don't know the stats (or if it's even possible to accurately collect statistics due to prohibition) but I'm fairly certain this costs more lives than the short lived opioid epidemic.


Is Trump pushing for broad drug decriminalisation? I feel like that would be necessary for this pardon to make sense on the basis of current drug laws being unjust.

Last I heard he was promising to make drug dealers eligible for the death penalty: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-wants-e...


Wasn't he also continuously complaining about how mexicans are importing all the drugs to the US (whether or not that statement is even factually correct)? He also recently designated drug cartels as terrorists. So all in all I wouldn't say he is for the decriminalisation of drugs.


Not exactly, fentanyl epidemic was specifically started by one family seek profit and ousted doctors to over prescribe it while claiming it was mildly addictive.

The war on drugs have caused immeasurable harm due to failure to understand most people use drugs either as escapism or as a tendency.

That's why it has failed.


I think you have fentanyl and oxycodone mixed up


Yes, sorry about that.


So we like drug markets now ?

How are cartels terrorist organizations?


I like free markets.


There are healthier middle grounds we could explore where e.g. advertisements are banned and individuals could register themselves as being banned from participating in certain addictive vices because they don't consistently have the willpower to quit or don't want to tempt fate trying it (and make it a crime to sell to an individual who has voluntarily banned themselves), but it's hard to argue that The War on Drugs has been in any way just.

I expect in such a society, certain groups (e.g. Mormons) would normalize banning yourself from vices the day you turn 18.


What is just is decided both by an individual and the society they exist in. "It is one's moral obligation to fight injustice" is a pretty common tenent to hold. Injustice can be city laws encouraging anti-homeless spikes. Injustice can also be genocide in a remote country. Those injustices get fought in very different ways. One can be handled by individual vigilanteeism and peacefully petitioning local governance. The other might require global war.

In my personal belief, everyone[0] has the right and moral obligation to fight the injustice they care about at the level they can manage. If that's handing out water at the protest or inventing penicillin, do what you personally can do to improve the world.

[0]the average layperson, obvious exceptions for power/money apply


Sure, but the facts matter. Making millions of dollars by operating a marketplace for illegal drugs is not even close to the same ballpark as protesting a draconian anti-homeless law, let alone resisting genocide!

The only reasonable argument for drug legalization, in my opinion, is the libertarian one - the idea that you should be free to take the drugs you want to take. I am sympathetic to this argument. I am someone who is able to make wise decisions about the drugs I take. But I also recognize that millions of my fellow citizens are not. The harm to society from drug addiction and overdoses outweighs the benefit to me getting high whenever I want.


so we all individually can just decide a law is unjust? that'll be fun


Don't worry - jefferson never actually said this because he wasn't a complete idiot.

Don't take my word for it though, the monticello folks looked into it too - https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jeffers...

It is a fun quote though, because it's one of those quotes that people want to use to justify their own dumb behavior.

"If you don't like the law, feel free to ignore it" - Albert Einstein


If you come to disagree with the justice of a law, your options are to conform or, yes, decide that the law is unjust.


I mean strictly speaking the people voted for Trump, so collectively they're all okay with this.

Of course Trump's platform was enormously based on law & order and combatting the drug trade, which he seems to think should still be actually illegal and is not ending the war on drugs so, I don't know - make of that what you will.


Maybe Thoreau? That's more authentic and gets at similar themes. On more than one level considering his circumstances and run-ins with law enforcement.

”Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison."


I wonder how this sentiment is going to play out in Luigi Mangione's trial.


Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner.


So were most aristocrats of the time. Applying presentism doesn't invalidate the idea.


But there were also abolitionists at the time, even amongst that class. Jefferson not being among them does, actually, diminish his standing and his views on justice. This quote, for example, does not acknowledge that there are also laws which are unjust to obey; such as the owning of human beings in chattel slavery.


I don’t think suggesting that his quote would imply his slaves would be justified in violating their own enslavement is any kind of presentism.


It is just hypocritical: even his time most people knew slavery was unjust.


He never actually said it, either.


… in a society where slavery was legal, widespread, and rarely questioned.

Murder has never been legal.


The legality of it is not in question (the purpose of this quote). It was as unjust then as it is now.


He tried to have multiple people murdered.


Jefferson did, certainly. He was instrumental in starting a war from what I understand.

Ross though? The government alleged it but never bothered to prove it. Furthermore the government agents involved were laughably corrupt, so anything they alleged needs to be taken with a massive grain of salt. For all anybody here know, they fabricated the entire assassination story to distract the public from their plot to loot Ross's money (which unlike the assassination stuff, has been proven in court.)


lol




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