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Realistically, a secular Iran would be the only real ally of Israel in the region. This is how it was under the shah, until 1979.

Israel is set to benefit enormously from an economically functional Iran, with sanctions lifted, and a sane, non-fanatical, non-oppressive government. Iran used to be a pretty cool and developed country in 1960s, and could be now.

(Edit: typo)



You’re like the gusanos that say Cuba was so much better before the revolution. Without mentioning it was only great for the landowning slavers.

Why do you think there was a revolution?


Well I'd argue 50% of the population got a raw deal in the revolution at least.


The Cuban revolution was more of a coup than a widespread national uprising.

It was a blind alley anyway. Zero countries that embraced Marxism-Leninism were able to reach prosperity on that ideology. Meanwhile, a lot of desperately poor countries of the 1950s are nowadays reasonably well of, on the basis of a normal, regulated market economy.


Do you have sources for all of this fantasy spin on history?


AFAIK Castro had never more than 3 thousand armed men at his side, and often much fewer, down to lower hundreds, spending much of the protracted conflict hiding in the countryside.

A revolution is something in which a significant part of a nation actively participates, not something that almost the entire population sits out passively.

Of course we can debate what is the necessary fraction, but 3000 militants isn't a big deal in a country of several million. Every Iraqi cleric in 2010 was able to put together a bigger militia than that.


Cubans kept massively supporting Fidel for quite some time, and quite explicitly, even through the disastrous Communist economic policies.

Iranians keep protesting; last few years have seen several large protests, involving hundreds of thousands, and continuing for months. The popularity just isn't there.

Regarding revolutions, it's quite often that a relatively small group of like-minded people capture the control, and the majority is weakly supporting them, or is even weakly opposed but complies. The French revolution was mostly about some nobility wanting to remove the monarchy that oppressed them, along with the rest; most of the population wasn't overtly anti-monarchy, and not even covertly so, but it did not like the monarchy's pressure either. The Russian revolution was "communist" and "proletarian", but even by their own Marxist accounting, proletarians were less than 10% of Russian population, and communists, much fewer still. Nevertheless, they subdued most of the Russian empire.

The Iranian revolution was also done by a group of highly religious people who were fed up with the shah's secularization reforms. The shah, AFAICT, was a guy a bit like Putin, or Saudi kings: efficient and geared towards prosperity of the country, but quite authoritarian. The fact that e.g. the educated urban population in Iran wasn't happy about authoritarianism does not imply that the same people were (or are) huge fans of theocracy. Actually, the theocracy ended up even more oppressive.


> This is how it was under the shah, until 1979.

Sort of? The US played a role in that shit show and it wasn’t all happy days under the Shah.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution


Not "happy", but Iran was quite a bit more sober, not hostile towards Israel, and relatively secular.

(Similarly, China under Deng Xiaoping was not a paragon of political freedom at all, but it was quite a bit more sober than under Mao Zedong. The US administration had tons of shortcomings under president Biden, but it was in quite a bit less of disarray than under president Trump.)


Shah was a dictator propped up by US. There's no going back to these times.


Installed. We overthrew Mossadegh. We overthrew a democracy.


Indeed, it was a shameful act.


Don’t forget Iran was defined as a country by the Ottoman Empire and others arbitrarily drawing lines around various groups that hate each other.


> Israel is set to benefit enormously from an economically functional Iran,

Israel is currently engaged in genocide, how would it be good for it to benefit enormously?


People keep saying genocide but has it been established objectively? I seem to remember the ICJ deciding they weren't, but that was some time ago.


> ? I seem to remember the ICJ deciding they weren't

Is this some reality distortion field? This never happened. Instead the ICJ issued multiple explicit orders to Israel that Israel has violated and the genocide case is still ongoing.


So it hasn't yet decided if there's genocide or not?

People should just say what they actually mean instead of ambiguous words like genocide. Is the genocide limiting food aid with the aim of demoralizing the population into losing support for Hamas? Or is it directly killing people in the fighting? He could have just said that so his words mean something. Those actions might or might not be genocide but they might still be something worth criticizing.


So we're just glossing over the fact that you tried to pretend the ICJ had said it wasn't genocide, a blatant lie, in your parent post? Why are you so committed to muddying the waters here?


It wasn't a lie. I really did seem to remember that. It may have been that they didn't reach a conclusion that it was genocide, or something else. I tried to look up the case and still couldn't see ICJ actually labelling it as genocide.


Who cares about ICJ or any International Law these days anymore?

Yeah, I mean we can still use it (or it's slowness and uselessness) to hide behind it but the facts are on the table. Gaza looks like post-war Germany at this point. People ARE starving. Meanwhile Israel expands to the east. Also illegally.


Anyone who calls something genocide needs to care because it has to have some definition or set of examples to mean anything, and those organizations are pretty much where the definitions come from. People love exaggerating political issues by using stronger words, so you have to tune it out, and then there's no information left.


People keep questioning the definition of genocide, as if finding some technical distinction will absolve the perpetrators.

If you actually care about international law, you might be interested to know that the ICC has issued (standing) arrest warrants for Netanyahu and the former Israeli Minister for Defense for various crimes against humanity and the use of starvation in warfare.




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