My advice is if you’re truly a Linux user first, give up the idea that Mac hardware is the only best/acceptable hardware. Break the cycle and don’t just buy Apple because their hardware is 10% better than competitors.
The market really isn’t limited to “buying a windows laptop and putting Linux onto it” anymore.
Lots of OEMs support Linux as a first-class citizen.
For me personally I’m enjoying my Framework laptop a lot. Is it the same kind of hardware polish as a Mac? No, of course not. But owning a Framework is like owning an Apple in the sense that the community has fully integrated Framework systems into the ecosystem.
One command installs Framework fan profiles into Bazzite Linux. One command inside Linux updates UEFI and device firmware, try doing that with Windows!
Is the battery like half as good as a MacBook Pro? Yeah. It sucks a little bit. But also, owning/carrying around a $50 portable battery isn’t such a bad thing, and the weight difference is a wash since the 13” Framework is lighter than the 14” MacBook Pro.
And on the plus side, I paid a less than MacBook Air money for a system with 2TB of storage and 32GB of RAM (DIY previous AMD generation model), fully upgradable, fully repairable, with customizable I/O.
A new battery is DIY, $60, not $250 with a wait for service. Replacing a broken screen is DIY $200, not $700 and a visit to the Apple service depot.
One day, I’m sure framework will be selling an ARM mainboard with similar battery life compared to a Mac, and when that day comes I don’t even have to buy a whole new system to get one.
And on top of all that, it’s still a nice laptop that feels premium even though it’s assembled DIY. I’d say the keyboard is better than a Mac keyboard (though the trackpad isn’t).
But also, there are other OEMs where running Linux is a joy and a breeze, along with being fully supported and even sold preinstalled. System76, Lenovo, Dell, and HP all have Linux-supported configurations.
I don't think any other competitor makes hardware of a similar class in terms of quality.
Framework is great, but it doesn't even come close in terms of quality. Specs are one thing, how the product looks, feels, attention to detail, and most importantly: long term viability! even if you take away everything else, macbooks are though. I've used a couple for over a decade with no hardware repair (except when I broke a screen). Most mac users have similar experiences, so it's not survivor's bias.
If all you care about is specs or open hardware, obviously Apple hardware is not for you.
I don't want framework or system76 to move to ARM, a lot of people like me still _need_ x86 hardware.
Thinkpad X1 is very solid and sexy hardware imo, tastes may vary
But my favorite machine of late is a tiny ultra portable with a Ryzen AI 9 chip with 64Gb RAM, it's an x86 that's competitive with the new ARM stuff on power efficiency
What does it matter if hardware still works in 10 years if you can't upgrade software anymore, nor can you replace it with something you have control over (like Linux)?
I still have a fully functioning iPhone 4s somewhere. I could still use it as a daily driver hardware-wise, but it is sadly deprecated (32-bit), so - no software support anymore.
Yes and the discussion here is about how that's not something that might be possible in the future, based on M1 and M2 support still being partial and M3 really experimental
I can’t believe you’re gaslighting us all by claiming “long term viability” is better on a MacBook, a system with zero user-replaceable components, a glued-in battery, soldered-in memory, etc.
A MacBook loses software updates in 10 years. Sometimes less. You can install what amounts to reverse engineered Linux on one if you lose your macOS updates. You have a choice of basically one viable distro.
And this idea that no other competitor makes hardware in a similar class of quality is extremely outdated. I actually own both a modern MacBook and a Framework. This isn’t some HP shitbook from 2011. It’s all aluminum, like I said the keyboard is literally superior to Mac systems, and are we just going to gloss over 2016-2020 when Apple just shit the bed and made utter garbage? Are we going to gloss over how the current systems have a gigantic notch blocking the menu bar that’s somehow bigger than FaceID but only houses a middling webcam?
You admit you broke a screen on your MacBook. How much did that cost you to repair? How long did you wait without your system to repair it? Or did you just go off and buy a new one?
The screen repair was like $150. I've had framebooks and they broke within 3 years from hardware failures. macbooks going strong a decade+. You can repair framework, you usually don't have to with a mac. Plus, for people who can't repair their own pc, apple's support is better than framework,dell,etc.
and please ffs, stop misusing the term "gaslight". someone having a different opinion and experience than you is not the same gaslighting you. gaslighting is when someone blames you for a harm they themselves caused. it isn't even possible for me to gaslight you in this context since the harm caused can only come from apple or someone making you use apple products.
> And this idea that no other competitor makes hardware in a similar class of quality is extremely outdated.
You might be right, but framework isn't it. We're having this discussion to better inform each other, so what laptop do you recommend that has a similar build quality as an MBP?
You had a framework that broke in 3 years. I had a MacBook Pro 15” 2016 with a defective keyboard design that had repeating keystrokes within a year, which wasn’t corrected on the design of the machines until 4 years later.
It’s gaslighting because you’re trying to convince us of a different alternate reality than the observed truthful reality, not just a different opinion. You’re trying to tell us that factually non-user-repairable MacBooks with a manufacturer that refuses to sell spare parts with a major hardware reliability scandal under its belt less than 10 years ago will stand the test of time.
I never claimed that you can find hardware that is 100% as good as MacBooks, I’m only claiming that the extra XX% better hardware polish/quality/battery life you get with a Mac is not really worth giving up expandable storage and easy Linux compatibility in the context of someone who was going to install Asahi Linux instead of macOS. And there are PC systems that get closer than ever to MacBook quality. ThinkPad X1 Carbon, some higher end ASUS Zenbook systems I’ve played with, even some of the thin and light gaming-oriented systems out there are really nice quality as the space is very competitive.
If the only major compromises are battery life (solved by a $50 spare battery or a wall outlet at the coffee shop) or how much my laptop feels like a luxury indulgence like a fashionable handbag, I’m personally fine with that.
I won't address anything else you've said because you keep abusing "gaslighting". I had a different experience and spoke about, others on the thread echoed my experience. Every mac user i've met so far has had similar experiences. I didn't tell you that your experience is wrong or invalid, i simply stated mine. You're abusing this trendy term as a cheat-code to avoid having to make reasonable arguments.
That's the thing. Even when you consider the hardware benefits. Let's say they're 10% better (I feel but happy to be corrected, that feels understated).
There isn't a single machine out there that's even moderately close in terms of build quality. Either at the dollar cost for an entry series MacBook Pro or Air with 36GB (38?) memory.
I don't think there's an OEM Linux or Windows laptop with Linux as a first class citizen laptop out there even moderately close for value, performance and build quality.
Shit I'm not sure if there's even one out there if you spent considerably more than on a MacBook. MacBook Pro's are pretty good value now.
From personal experience, laptops that cost $30000+ (yes, USD) still come nowhere close to even a macbook air in terms of build quality. They have much better specs, but if you run Windows on it, the effects are much less pronounced. I have moved from a new Dell to a macbook with half the cpu and ram and for me t least it "feels" like the macbook is twice as fast and as responsive. I don't know if it is just better architecture or fine tuned software, but that's my experience.
Apple used the whole "economy of scale" effect to invest in specialized tooling/machining that would be too costly to recover the ROI for other OEMs. Keep in mind that consumer laptop makers to the most part don't make a profit (or have a low profit margin - last i checked at least) on laptops and printers. No one else has made the economics of using quality material, top of the line design, and specialized machining/tooling work like Apple.
I think for generic OEMs that may hold , however for manufactures like Huawei with their matebookX line the build quality is pretty much on-par while the components and options being offthe shelf standard means it should be easier to upgrade/support and port Linux to than MacBooks.Also the price is pretty much competititve for the kit that one gets.
The blocking isseu would be getting one as the whole US attack on the company means their kit is pretty much limited edition within China at the moment currently.Maybe in a year or two they should be available at previous volumes.
I had a Huawei Magicbook for years that finally died last year. It was as close to Apple quality as I'd ever seen in hardware (except for the damn touchpad again - although the Huawei one was head and shoulders above any other non-Apple one).
For hardware quality, Huawei is solidly in second place, with the rest trailing pretty far behind.
And then there’s battery life and sleep drain. Only a handful of competitors come close, and those have caveats like significantly reduced peak performance and the usual papercuts so common in the x86 laptop world.
It’s such a problem that if I were to switch away from Apple, I’d try to find a way to go desktop-exclusive and not use a laptop at all, because everything else on the market is so compromise-ridden as to not be worth the trouble. And I say this as the owner of an X series ThinkPad, which are among the better options in that world.
It’s as if most laptop manufacturers can’t be arsed to take their products seriously. So frustrating.
Why not? My framework weighs 1 pound less than my MacBook Pro did and the spare battery weighs about one pound itself. Net backpack weight is the same.
If I am guilty of hand waving a spare battery aren’t MacBook die-hard guilty of handwaving away major downsides to the device like soldered-in storage? I saved something like $500 compared to Apple by buying my own 2TB of storage.
And let’s be honest, it’s rare to actually need MacBook Air levels of “sitting away from a power outlet” battery life. It’s definitely nice to have and I definitely wish my framework had that level of battery life but it’s a want not a need, and it’s not as important to me as having a system I can repair myself, having a system that runs Linux with first-class support, plays PC games easily, etc.
I will also say that the spare battery being in my backpack now has coincidentally come in handy countless times outside of the laptop.
And if you want better battery life than that there are other choices like Lenovo, you don’t even have to use a Framework to get a great Linux laptop.
For some types of work, I carry around 3 power banks if I'm to do a full days work away from power. Max screen brightness + high CPU use of long compiles means I'm averaging 40 watts
Add on a starlink and you need a trolley to carry the weight of the power packs needed.
Sure. For your type of work, that's the only solution.
To clarify, I'm totally fine with powerbanks, especially that these days even the cheapo ones support a subset of PD to charge a laptop (sometimes even 12V is enough, my Thinkpad allows that, I've read somewhere that Framework can charge from even 5V). I'm just not fine with solving an objectively poorer battery management (compared to Macs) by just buying external battery and calling it a solution. It's a workaround at best.
I have a Framework 13 that I use as my personal laptop and a work-issued M3 MacBook Pro.
I love my Framework 13. I'm a long-time Mac user, but I increasingly found myself alienated by locked-down hardware and increasingly locked-down software, and so I ended up switching back to PCs. I greatly appreciate my Framework 13's user-serviceability. While I use Windows 11 + WSL (Microsoft Office is the main thing holding me back from using Linux exclusively, and yes, I was a regular LibreOffice user back in my student days when I couldn't afford a Microsoft Office license), it's great to have the option to go to Linux full-time on well-supported hardware.
With that said, my M3 MacBook Pro has absolutely amazing battery life. By comparison, my Framework 13 has rather abysmal battery life by 2025 standards. In fact, it feels reminiscent of my very first Apple laptop: a 2006 Core Duo MacBook, which got roughly five hours when brand new. Even putting my Framework 13 to sleep drains the battery after a few hours, while on my MacBook Pro, it barely sips from the battery.
I hope future releases of Framework laptops have better battery life; it makes a difference.
My beef with the Framework laptops is that their memory bandwidth is 5 to 8 times slower (depending on the generation, CPU, and RAM) than that of a $1,500 refurbished MacBook Pro M1 Max 64GB.
A M1 Max has 400GB/s of memory bandwidth but the CPU is only capable of using half of that (see https://tlkh.hashnode.dev/benchmarking-the-apple-m1-max#memo...). So a framework 13 with ddr 5 5600 with 86GB/s of memory bandwidth has a bit less than half, nowhere near ⅕th.
If we compare like-to-like the rtx 5070 in a framework 16 has 384GB/s on its own, add the 86 and the combined memory bandwidth is higher than a M1 Max.
I was being generous. These are just the pure bandwidth speeds. For my workflow when the CPU has to go back and forth with the RAM hudreds of times with unique queries, SoCs are hundreds times faster not 5 times.
But then you have a 5 year old laptop that’s going to lose official Apple software support in 5 years and become a paperweight unless you install your choice of ONE Linux distro.
If you don’t specifically have a memory bandwidth-constrained workflow this doesn’t matter at all and having upgradable memory is still better for most people.
If Framework starts using CAMM modules or releases a Ryzen AI board with soldered RAM this difference is lessened/disappears.
But it's so slow. Why not just buy a new MacBook Pro every 2 years with more RAM and a faster CPU? The machine makes us money. I mean, I don't know what you guys are doing.
fwiw the asahi kernel and patches are usable from other distros just fine; i've done it on nixos in the past and the linked blog post shows some stuff running on gentoo
even the things you mention in your post paint a picture of a difference that for a lot of usage patterns is much more significant than just the last 10%
> A new battery is DIY, $60, not $250 with a wait for service. Replacing a broken screen is DIY $200, not $700 and a visit to the Apple service depot.
This is a weird assertion to make, if you don't have the parts on hand and can't walk into a store to buy them same-day. A big part of the reason I _do_ buy Apple laptops (besides the fact I do like the OS, battery life and hardware) is that I can walk into an Apple Store in any major city I'm likely to be in and purchase a replacement immediately should disaster strike while I'm traveling.
But now you’re comparing buying a whole new computer to repairing one. It’s not like it’s hard to buy an x86 laptop at a Best Buy.
The fact of the matter is that sending a MacBook to depot and fixing it takes around a week including transit times to and from. Apple no longer does any computer repairs in store.
At $60 for a battery or $200 for a screen those parts are so cheap that I could just buy them to keep on hand and they’d still cost less than AppleCare.
Many parts like storage and RAM are standard where, yes, I can walk into a store and buy them and install them same day.
It is in fact very difficult to buy a professional grade computer of any kind from Best Buy, let alone something like a Thinkpad with reasonable specs. You might luck out and be in a city with a micro center, but you probably won’t.
If I’m on the road and my laptop breaks, I’m buying a new one post haste, and resolving the problem when I get home. It’s like 2-3 hours worth of billing time to do so vs screwing about trying to repair. Simply not worth the time.
I don’t believe you. My local Best Buy has 134 different laptop models in stock in the store.
Have you ever heard of Amazon prime? You really think they don’t have a suitable laptop they can deliver to you overnight or maybe even the same day?
And anyway, this is really only an argument for “whatever is most popular,” not “what is the best machine.” If some other brand besides Apple was the most popular laptop in the world that other brand would get this same treatment by you even if the computer sucked (which MacBook Pro did between 2016 and 2020)
Essentially you’re saying that Budweiser is the best beer because it’s the most available. If I run out of beer I can get it anywhere.
I do indeed think that there is unlikely to be a single professional model in a Best Buy - a Thinkpad, a professional-grade Dell without crapware preinstalled, a System76 or a Framework. The exception of course is actually a Mac, which you can buy there.
Amazon prime might get one to you next day, late in the day. That is wildly insufficient for a business trip. If you’re in a city where they will deliver same-day, you can probably also go to a Microcenter and get a low-spec Thinkpad off-the-shelf.
Beer is not a necessity when traveling for business (though I actually happen to be perfectly happy to drink Bud Light, Coors Banquet, or PBR just as readily as a Grisette, since I’m not a snob), but a functioning laptop is.
As for popularity - sure - making a good product makes it popular. I was in fact so happy with the Mac between 2016-18 that I bought a second so I would have the nice low travel keyboard and Touch Bar available indefinitely.
Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, frankly.
if you're going to hold Framework to that standard, wouldn't you also agree that buying a Lenovo machine would be indirectly supporting an authoritarian government with a troubling human-rights record?
You're typically not buying a Framework just because you like the hardware. Framework represents a political project, so you typically buy Framework because you support their values and politics. I don't.
You can rationalise your decision however you want, but to me it sounds like you're mad with the little guy for their lack of moral purity, but you're implicitly fine with a larger company doing much worse. That seems inconsistent at best.
You may find it inconsistent, and that's fine. But I do actually find it worse to buy from the explicitly political pro-fascist company than to buy from the "normal company" which just "incidentally" benefit fascist governments through their normal business operations.
So in other words you've got nothing? There is literally nothing in your links that backs up your claims.
So conferences in every western country should also not invite Chinese or Japanese speakers because they hold similar views to DHH? I'm so over this exhausting need to feel self-righteous.
International trade is extremely complex, funding and publicizing a project is not. Framework supports DHH, both financially and in terms of publicity. That's not something I wanna support.
The mental gymnastics and contortions you are putting yourself through are quite stunning. You're finding associations that do not exist. I feel I'm staring at a wall strewn with thumb-tacked red yarn, linking all sorts of nonsense together while the creator steps back and exclaims "see, proof!".
Framework makes hardware and software. If you're going to close yourself off to any product or organization that happens to have some users you disagree with - then you're not going to get very far in this world. This is a wild, and frankly unhealthy perspective to hold.
Please explain which associations I'm finding which do not exist.
> If you're going to close yourself off to any product or organization that happens to have some users you disagree with
I do not see where I mentioned Framework users. I care about the actions of the company. I care that they decide to support DHH, financially and through promoting his projects, and I care that they double down on their support in the face of push-back.
> double down on their support in the face of push-back.
Because the push-back was dumb. This idea what we have to isolate and attack every person that we don't agree with is dumb. That you consider DHH's position on immigration sufficient to label him a fascist is dumb. All of it is moral showboating with no actual substance, otherwise you'd put your money where you mouth is and not purchase from most companies in the world that work with actual fascist regimes.
Your claim was that they explicitly support fascism. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. What you seem to mean instead is: They financially support a popular open source project called Omarchy, which is built by DHH, and you believe DHH to be a fascist.
You're welcome to your opinion, and I have zero insight into whether DHH is a fascist or not, but by no means is that explicit support for fascism! It's not just exaggeration, it's actually a lie.
If you buy a machine from Framework you might indirectly support a project which is maintained by someone whose opinions you dislike.
If you buy a Lenovo machine you will contribute to the revenue of an authoritarian government that will use some of that money to perpetuate human rights abuses against its own citizens, and maybe the citizens of your own country too one day.
Which is the most moral choice here in your opinion?
I mean I already answered that, didn't I? I find it worse to buy from the explicitly political pro-fascist company than to buy from the "normal company" which just "incidentally" benefit fascist governments through their normal business operations.
To exaggerate, we could imagine that there was an explicitly nazi computer manufacturer who put swastika stickers on their laptops and everything. When faced with the choice of Lenovo and this explicitly nazi manufacturer, I would probably choose the Lenovo, even though you could probably do the same consequentialist math and conclude that Lenovo does more actual harm through their utility to the CCP than what the tiny nazi computer company can do. I imagine you feel the same way.
What Framework does is obviously way less egregious than my hypothetical example, but I'm still not comfortable associating with a company which so publicly funds DHH, for the same kind of reason that I would not be comfortable associating with the nazi computer company.
Thanks for bearing with me, I am sincerely trying to understand your mindset here.
So this is really a signalling thing? If you bought a Framework laptop you'd be signalling to your peers that you're ambivalent about supporting an ideology that obviously you fundamentally disagree with and is unanimously despised within your groups?
By buying a Framework laptop I'm signaling to Framework that I don't care about their support of the ideology. My ideal outcome here would be that Framework's support of DHH would directly and unambiguously result in a dramatic loss of sales, which would signal to the world that supporting such ideologies is toxic to your brand.
And, sure, my peers play a role too. What message do I send, for example, to my transgender friends when I demonstrate that I don't mind Framework's public support of DHH's public transphobic rhetoric? What message do I send to my non-white friends when I demonstrate that I don't mind Framework's public support of DHH's public "the UK was better when it was all white" rhetoric? Et cetera.
I don't know... As someone who many people would characterize as "way too woke", this doesn't really quite ruin Framework for me (though I don't own any of their products).
DHH is certainly an ass, and this is my first time reading about the racist stuff (before this I just found him generally extremely unlikable), but just general association with someone with shitty opinions doesn't fully ruin a project for me. I guess Omarchy is popular nowadays (I'm really not sure why, if someone really knows, please explain), people are going to want to use it on their Framework computers, ergo: Framework has a reason to cooperate with Omarchy developers so their devices work like the customers want them to, and I guess I'm fine with it even if DHH leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
I guess I sort of feel similar in regards to suckless, I don't really like most of their projects, from what I've heard there are some abhorrent people involved, but I wouldn't really put blame on the distro maintainer that packages their projects for their users to use, I guess?
Though, I definitely get why people might feel differently.
I don't use Bluesky, I prefer Mastodon and frankly quite dislike Bluesky's faux-decentralization. But Framework uses Bluesky, so that's what I'm gonna link to when I wanna link to their posts.
I tried, and all I found was some hearsay. Ethical concerns were raised by many publications without any specifics. Some mention the issue is building on top of hyprland, which (oh god, no) has some ethical issues.
DHH made a blog post in which he implied (but did not state) that the UK isnt white enough anymore. Its gross and racist, but as far as I know this is all there is to the current controversy around him.
IMO, the implication is quite weak. The only place I found where the author mentions ethnicity, is when he refers to Pakistani rape gangs, and I assume, the choice if words is influenced by the article he links (can't verify, as the link to the article is broken).
Otherwise, this seems to me like an antiimmigration position, but I couldn't spot any racial or ethnical prejudice.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree. It's not like DHH is just some contributor, he's the public face of the project and the person who stands to benefit from its success.
1) he literally wrote a blog post complaining that London sucks because there are too many non-white people there. We're not talking about someone who is a bit conservative; we're talking about an explicitly racist person.
You don't seem to understand what fascism actually is. None of these things are that.
Even though I disagree with DHH on all of these topics I don't see how it's relevant to Free Software at all unless the distro were using the webcam and IP geolocation and refusing to work for brown people in England.
The market really isn’t limited to “buying a windows laptop and putting Linux onto it” anymore.
Lots of OEMs support Linux as a first-class citizen.
For me personally I’m enjoying my Framework laptop a lot. Is it the same kind of hardware polish as a Mac? No, of course not. But owning a Framework is like owning an Apple in the sense that the community has fully integrated Framework systems into the ecosystem.
One command installs Framework fan profiles into Bazzite Linux. One command inside Linux updates UEFI and device firmware, try doing that with Windows!
Is the battery like half as good as a MacBook Pro? Yeah. It sucks a little bit. But also, owning/carrying around a $50 portable battery isn’t such a bad thing, and the weight difference is a wash since the 13” Framework is lighter than the 14” MacBook Pro.
And on the plus side, I paid a less than MacBook Air money for a system with 2TB of storage and 32GB of RAM (DIY previous AMD generation model), fully upgradable, fully repairable, with customizable I/O.
A new battery is DIY, $60, not $250 with a wait for service. Replacing a broken screen is DIY $200, not $700 and a visit to the Apple service depot.
One day, I’m sure framework will be selling an ARM mainboard with similar battery life compared to a Mac, and when that day comes I don’t even have to buy a whole new system to get one.
And on top of all that, it’s still a nice laptop that feels premium even though it’s assembled DIY. I’d say the keyboard is better than a Mac keyboard (though the trackpad isn’t).
But also, there are other OEMs where running Linux is a joy and a breeze, along with being fully supported and even sold preinstalled. System76, Lenovo, Dell, and HP all have Linux-supported configurations.