I don't buy into the identity concept as PG pitches it. My identity is that I've got a beard and flat feet -- I could care less about those issues. My identity is that I own a Jeep and love philosophy -- feel free to rag on both of those all you want.

It's just an oversimplification and not useful in the real world.

People get defensive when you call into question their competence or judgment. Some people feel that any criticism calls into question their value. Some people (like myself) are used to it. Identity != Value. I'm lots of things. I make lots of decisions. Unless you can assault the critical part of my judgment system that makes choices you're free to say about anything.

As for college, simply separate out what you want and go do it. I think college is great for forming connections, for finding a cofounder. So if I didn't have one (or a few good candidates) I'd go in a heartbeat.

If I wanted a good liberal arts foundation, which I think is crucial to living a good life, I'd go get that. Colleges do not own the monopoly on liberal arts educations, though.

So take ownership and go do what makes sense. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer here.

I think it's a good discussion to illuminate what people's goals are. People need to think about their own personal goals instead of having other people on the internet tell them what to do. You do that best by thinking about it: hearing people argue/discuss. But if it devolves into a right vs wrong thing it _is_ a waste of time.

I'd say the opposite -- it's something which is useful in the real world, regardless of if I'd use the same labels for it as Paul does. There are some topics that tend towards people talking past each other. This is one of them. How many people do you think have read this thread and changed their opinion on the worth of college? Few, if any. Most people are just rehashing decisions they made years ago -- just like every two weeks when we have this discussion all over again.

Why does a group of people who by and large have already made this decision -- and won't be making it again -- find it so worthwhile to keep debating it? Probably because explaining the choice they made makes them feel better about themselves.

The problem with that viewpoint, in my opinion, is that it's a throwaway: instead of figuring out the problem, simply categorize something as "unproductive to talk about" and ignore it.

Whether or not the conversation is boring is another matter entirely. Obviously somebody posted the article, so it means something to somebody. After a while, I'm going to stop reading all these college vs. no college articles. So will everyone else, I imagine. Nature will take it's toll.

I trust my fellow posters to come on here with an open mind. That's not out of any kindness on my part -- it's simply a practical matter. There's no point in posting anything at all if you're just talking past one another.

We're talking. See? Obviously both of us feel that there is some information that is being exchanged that is worthwhile about some tangential part of this topic.

I think I come at this from the standpoint of having to work with people all day long that have strong opinions about technology. If I had an option of simply ignoring subjects that my clients found difficult to come to grips with, my work would be a lot easier. And nothing would get done.

Yes. There are some topics that people tend to talk past each other. Those are the most important ones to talk about. What? You want to spend your time on things nobody feels strongly about? As long as the chat is productive, bring it on. If it's not productive, downvote it, ignore it, and move on. Just like anything else that's not worthy of your or my time.

EDIT: I don't want to look like I'm changing my opinion, so what I mean is that there are some topics that people tend to associate directly with their judgment and self-worth. Religion is one of those. Politics is another. But gee, it can be anything. This emotional entanglement is just a part of human nature and is part of real-world conversations.

Useful discussion is that which has the ability to inform decision, generally. Out of 54 comments here, 52 are from people who seem to be past this point and the other 2 seem to already know what they want to do. It'd be cute to think that those other 52 are really doing it for the good of the remaining 2, but do you really believe that?

If this were say, one of the many discussions about database tech, caching and whatnot -- even though we've got a lot of experts in those fields people still change their minds, are open to new view points, and use that information to make future decisions.

This is like the girl I'm dating and I arguing over which of our home countries has the best food. We're arguing over formative experiences that have just become part of who we are. It's cute banter, but really not more. Just because we're going to continually disagree, and we're both throughly convinced of our rightness, doesn't mean that it's an important thing for us to keep discussing.

I learned that college excels at helping people hook up with cofounders -- I hadn't thought of that is such clear terms before today (and I immediately stole the idea and commented with it!) Since I am in search of a cofounder, now I will begin thinking about using college as an avenue to do that. Not life changing, just yet, but it made a difference.

Others have pointed out learning things from the conversation, including the person who posted the article.

For you, perhaps, it seems like old hat and re-hash, and it has that faint whiff for me too, but every now and then a little glimmer of light shines through. That's why longer posts are usually better than short ones -- you're more likely to stumble on an area that nobody has thought about if you try to be thorough.

I know how you feel, though (I think). I get the same burnt-out feeling when I see yet another article on git, or piracy, or CSS vs non-CSS, or functional vs. imperative, etc.

Heck, if you think about it, there's a lot of topics where we're mostly just talking past each other. That's kind of my point: people get emotionally entangled with the weirdest stuff. Instead of trying to generically categorize it, I just accept it as a natural part of human interaction. If had a magic list of topics to avoid that would be nice, but unrealistic.

Actually, looking at the thread below, and on the article itself, I can see several replies that are by people who are around that age, where they have that choice, and are hesitating. I can only hope that my article will have helped them in their choice. If it helps even one, imho, the article was worth writing.

If you've ever watched Jerry Springer/Ricki Lake/Montel Williams etc, I think the phenomenon is expressed something like:

Audience member: "You should have done X"

Messed up person on stage: "You don't know me! You don't know me! <Louder> You don't know me! You don't know!"

Good point. Did anyone do one or the other and regret it?

I regret going to college before I understood how real life really worked. I would've taken it more seriously, picked a major a bit more deliberately, etc.

If I ever had kids, I'd tell them I'd pay for a chunk of college-- if they put it off for 1-2 years after high school.

Agreed. It only took me 1-2 years out of college to begin to regret all the things I DIDN'T study while I was there. If I'd taken a year or two, worked, and got some "partying" out of my system, my college years would have been much better spent.

College should not be a way to delay a child's real life. It should be part of their strategy to live a good one.

I regret my college loans... like I said elsewhere in this comment thread, if I could do it over, I'd make it as cheap as possible for myself.

My college loans are by far the best investment I've ever made. I went to a good in-state public school (Purdue), and lived very cheap. If they weren't at less than 3% interest they would have been paid off in one year from the extra money it earned me at work.

I don't understand the blanket hatred of college; it appears to come from people who spent >$100k/yr and are now drowning in that debt. If doe properly it's a very good thing; I learned a lot, made connections and grew as a person. I would say it's worth more to me than what I paid.

$100k/year?! I thought even the expensive ones maxed out around $50k/year?

I found a list of the most expensive colleges (http://www.campusgrotto.com/most-expensive-colleges-for-2008...). I don't claim that this is an authoritative source but I've seen very similar lists elsewhere). There are three colleges in the US that break 50k per year for tuition, room, and board. There are quite a few more between 48k and 50k, though, and so with a standard tuition hike of a few percent they'll be over 50k next year.

My own institution is proud to be doing its own "lowest tuition hike in 41 years", at 3.8 percent. Thankfully I'm a PhD student and so I don't actually pay my own tuition.

Yeah, so there are only a small number of colleges that expensive.

How about we say $100k of debt for a degree?

Me too. I'd have found a way to make it cheaper. I'd already figure out how to network and how to leverage it to make it work for me and yet, I subsidized their game for longer because I wanted access to a school with small classes and personal relationships with profs.

All of that is pretty overrated, teaching quality on margin is worse and unless it's a Top 100 school, you're basically wasting time. And even if it is, you're still probably wasting a good deal of money.

Should've just left the military, gone to community college and taken a scholarship to keep as cheap as I could've. Oh well, now I know.

I'm in the same boat - I had the choice between big-name school at $lots/year and no-name school for $free. Bad decision.

I did two years. It wasn't worth the cost. I wish I had used the money to elongate my runway (if you know what I mean).

I regret not finishing my Master's degree... Granted, I probably still wouldn't have used the degree much (M.Ed in Higher Education Administration), but the year I spent working towards it made me a much better researcher and writer than 4 years as an undergrad.

I definitely have never regretted going to college, though.

I did 2 years of CS and dropped out. For the past 3 years I've been very successful, but I regret lacking deep knowledge of data structures, algorithms, and operating systems.

I did a year of Uni and it was pretty much a wasted year, although I don't regret it. I wouldn't be who I am if I hadn't done it.