How about gathering in one of the countries that recently joined the EU: Bulgaria, Romania... Living is cheap, labour is cheap, people are smart. Anyone interested?

On the other hand conditions there not that professional and engineers don't have adequate experience. Hmm...

This is a great idea simply because it combines two great experiences everyone in their 20s should appreciate - starting your own venture with friends and living in another country for an extended period.

Sprout Systems (the original one at sproutit.com, thank you very much, not the one Clustrix merged with) lived in Prague for ten months when developing Mailroom:

"The three of us met in school at Point Loma Nazarene University in San Diego. After graduation, we decided to launch a business together. Once we got to talking about our past experiences trying to find good software to run our small businesses, we knew what we had to do.

"Since then, the three of us actually moved to Prague, Czech Republic to help launch our business. This is the internet after allXwe can be anywhere. We thought: why not some place that is both exciting and 40% cheaper than California? We will only be here for 10 months or so, but it has made this startup unforgettable!"

I'm actually eastern European (Bulgarian) who currently lives and works in US. I'm obviously biased but I think living conditions in eastern Europe are great. The somewhat relaxed atmosphere of those countries is probably great at least while building prototypes.

I'm living in Romania. It would be a great place to join up with other entrepreneurs. My biggest problem is finding entrepreneurally-minded people (co-founders).

Finding experienced programmers to hire is not a problem, there are plenty. There's an entire outsourcing industry working for US and Western Europe clients.

Finding "professional conditions" (office space? net? or what?) is not a problem either.

Living costs are still cheap, but rising, and so are wages.

Good to know that there are so many Romanians on YC. I moved from Romania in Bay Area 6 years ago. I just went back there for a few weeks in August. Life is getting more expensive there and from what my friends were telling me, there is an increasingly demand for programmers, therefore the wages are going up.

I was thinking about moving back for a while but I don't think this will happen very soon. If anybody would like to talk about Romania some more feel free to email me (email address in the profile).

I'd be interested to learn more about Romania. Danny76, please contact me if you wish to discuss this further: kmt at ftml dot net.

Personally I wouldn't recommend Romania as a place to do a startup yet, at least not to incorporate in Romania. I moved to the US from Romania about 7 years ago and while some things have improved in the mean time I think the current system in Romania would impose too many road bloacks for a startup. Great place however to outsource.

Well, you could incorporate in Delaware but be located in Romania for a while. Also, Romania has probably improved a bit since you left.

Incorporate in Delaware; bureaucracy is still time-consumming in RO. You could work like that for a while and nobody would bother you (or even know you exist for that matter).

Eventually (i.e. when you have profits and want to take dividends) you're supposed to register your business with Romania. Or you could just go back to the US. At that point you probably have enough money to have lawyers and accountants take the hassle out of doing business.

Danny, I'm Romanianian too; click on my profile and shoot me an email if you want to talk more. I understand your point exactly; I have 2 family members who are programmers there in Bucharest and when I called them up half a year ago to join me in my startup efforts, their first response was "You want to do WHAT??!?" Hang in there, send me an email -- emailadrian "at" inbox "dotcom". Things are changing especially since EU integration this year. Don't forget that Romanian programmers put UbiSoft on the Map. Look at that as an example, it's not much, but it's something. A company started by french farmers to make video games programmed first and foremost by Romanian programmers. If it can work 15 years ago, much more can be done now.

You'd be surprised by the skills of east european programmers (and engineers). Yes, their industry may be smaller but on the other hand there is a lot of good hobbyist hackers (e.g. in demoscene and computer security circles).

I lived in Bulgaria over the summer while working on my startup. Good fun, very very cheep (but maybe there was some recent inflation? Also the dollar vs euro problem, and the Leva is fixed to the euro.. still extremely cheep though)

It does help greatly to have someone who is a local to negotiate the rent for you though. My girlfriend did this for me and we got an far better deal than an english speaking foreigner probably could.

It is very true that labor was also cheep there.

I think this is a great idea! in SV, I bet you easily could find more speakers and mentors than you need, and they could generate a buzz to get the VC community out for a demo day.

That girl sure does have a very hairy arm

It's Europe, what do you expect...

This is something I was thinking about after reading the rejection thread.

How many other rejects are still going ahead with the plan to move their startup to SV this winter even though they aren't participating in YC? (or are already there after not getting accepted into previous cycles?)

We'll be there for sure, and would be highly interested in organizing something with other 'Y Not' startups to have some kind of social environment and network and have fun with other groups.

I live in Santa Cruz right now, and am going to be moving up to the bay. We found YC about 3 months early, unfortunately, and are just now working on a demo to shop around for seed funding.

I'm going to be moving up sometime in January. If people want to get together and rent and apartment, I'd be really interested. I'm thinking a 3 bedroom, with bunk beds and the whole nine yards.

Also, just getting together and eating dinner and talking would be immensely helpful.

Is anyone interested? How can we organize this?

I've created a facebook group (hold the lynching mob please). http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5381210911

I'd personally like to move to SV for three or four months

I am interested, though I need someone to invite me to US to let me apply for visa.

P.S. That is basically what I was talking about yesterday (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=70071 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=70107)

P.P.S. I am interested to move, to communicate frequently and to share apartments to reduce costs.

The silicon valley probably ain't a bad place to be but:

- there is this thing called the Interweb that helps communicate efficiently from all over the world (I find amusing the idea that you have to be in a certain place in one country to work on Internet stuff; doesn't sound like "eating your own dogfood" if you ask me);

- instead of all european entrepreneurs moving to the US, why not organize in Europe? Most people want to move to the US because it's easier, with less bureaucracy... yet they have to face complicated immigration issues.

Just because pg is a brilliant entrepreneur who identified a few specific rules to help replicate what he did ten years ago doesn't mean it's the only way. Far from it. Think different.

On the internet, nobody can see you fail. Peer pressure, weekly dinners, demo day - you can't really replicate that on the web.

As for organising in Europe, where? London is very expensive, and nothing else springs to mind.

Cambridge has a lot of tech companies on it's science park these days.

http://www.cambridgesciencepark.co.uk/companies.php

I understand that Copenhagen and Amsterdam are thriving tech centers. They are also full of English speakers and beautiful women.

A "thriving tech center" is overstating it a bit for Amsterdam, but we certainly have our share of small web start-ups, and there are plenty of programmers available. The atmosphere is great, the climate is no distraction, (but the nightlife is).

Language is not a barrier, but I don't think you should incorporate here - we have high capital requirements. NTIAALOA (not that I am a lawyer or anything).

Current minimal capital requirement is 18000 euro for a Dutch limited company, but a new bill will remove this requirement.

Is it really so hard to incorporate in the US but operate from overseas? I don't think it is.

Probably not, but I don't think you get any of the benefits of the corporation unless you also register a local branch of it, and then you're back to square one. Meaning you can't really be employed by your own company...stuff like that.

I highly doubt that.

Yeah? What's your information? Mine is spotty, but comes from a friend in Italy who is a registered accountant there, who told me in no uncertain terms that having DedaSys LLC in Oregon is all fine and dandy, but in terms of Italy, it basically doesn't exist. If at some point I would want to be employed by it, it would require creating a local subsidiary that then has all the same bureaucratic requirements that any other company would have. If you think about how governments operate, it does make sense. Even if you do business a lot in another US state, you're supposed to register to do business there - let alone another country.

The potential "loophole" is registering a company in an EU country that's not so lame as the continental ones (i.e. Ireland or the UK), but I don't have good information on that.

I doubt those beautiful women would enhance your prospects.

In fact, the ugliness of girls in the major startup hubs is probably a feature.

Copenhagen is awesome, but realty is expensive. Though Malmo, Sweden is quite close and it is cheaper.

I live in Copenhagen, and often have Canadian and US exchange students subletting rooms at my apartment. They all complain about the living costs here. The web / startup scene is not impressive. The VC's are really conservative, and don't seem to get the early funding scheme. They'd much rather give millions at a later stage. But hey, the women are beautiful :-)

Are Malmo living costs significantly lower?

Within europe the UK and Ireland are best in terms of social security and tax law. Beware of countries with minimum social security contributions of which there are many. On another thread someone suggested destinations close enough to London to commute.

Spain? Never been there though :)

Spain is hugely bureaucratic and their social security system is insane for startup founders.

> "Spain is hugely bureaucratic and their social security system is insane for startup founders."

Do you have experience with this?

any need to interfere with their social security and bureaucracy being incorporated elsewhere?

If you want to stay on the legal side you must tell them. Unless you have no income from your business I guess.

edit: I'm assuming you're talking about more than just 3 months on a beach ;-)

SV is very expensive. I think London is a perfectly good place.

John.

Isn't London expensive too?

> have to be

PG never said "have to", he said you'll have better luck, everything else being equal.

> complicated immigration issues.

This is very true. It was even before 9/11 - search for Torvalds in this page:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9800E0DC1039F...

> organize in Europe?

That's where the problems start - where in Europe? England and Ireland are probably the most company friendly countries.

Do it in Finland. Tons of highly skilled workforce, lots of other startups, etc. I don't think the bureaucracy bit is too much of a challenge, especially when compared to US immigrations.

I'm actually a US citizen, but I'm sick of silicon valley and don't really fancy going back, unless it's for my wife (she's in biotech, and they're way more cluster-dependent than we are in computers).

Part of the reason I don't want to go back there is quality of life issues. While I'm sure Finland is a nice place for many things, it looks too cold and flat for my tastes. Also, the language is supposedly not very easy, and even though most people probably speak english well, it's always a plus to be able to integrate as much as possible.

Anyway, that's just my personal take on it, which comes down to my tastes, not anything objectively wrong.

What is the cost of living there? How about social security contributions and health insurance while you're not making any (or just a little) money?

And don't forget the dancing and the singing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1-VsiznAU

I am basically okay to unite with other European enterpreneurs here in Europe, that's a good idea, too (if I will have no possibility to move to SV)

I still believe in face-to-face communications, they bring so much value!

Why don't we organize it in South America?, it's cheaper than US or Europe.

Where are you now? We are coming from Argentina so we have immigration challenges too.

Does anybody know if it's legal for us to work on our startup in the US without having a work visa (if we aren't taking a salary) _after_ we incorporate in the US?

I have a US work visa, when I first came here I came with an E visa (Executive or something), because I worked for a finnish start-up that was launching their US operations here. I later heard that it's a good visa class (not sure why) and quite difficult to get.

I'm from Finland btw, your home country does affect your chances with some of the visa types.

I am currently in Ukraine.

IANAL, but I suppose it is ok to have a kind of usual visa for three month or so and commit to your own US company wherever you are (while you have no salary).

I am a co-founder of US company already.

If anyone who wasn't accepted wants to move to Cambridge, my roommate and I may have a deal for you. We'll provide you(or ya'll--up to 2) with free room & board in return for doing some development for our company(an angel funded web 2.0 startup). Then you can spend your time working on your company in the center of innovation in Cambridge. I'm not saying this will definitely happen, but if you're nice enough and seem like you just need a boost like this to get going I just may. Email me breck at breckyunits.com if interested.

BTW- Our company started the YC application but our customers are closer to Cambridge so we never finished the app. Judging by the acceptance rate we most likely would have gotten rejected anyway but it still was too bad we couldn't apply. I've been living in North Carolina for 5 years, is there something about the winter in Boston I should know ;)

Let's just not call it YC rejects ... I know they say that all PR is good PR, but I don't see the point of labeling yourself by one person's turn-down.

"Y Not"s sound pretty good, actually.

Yeah, that name is awesome :-)

I second it :)

that's a brilliant name..

I think based on that and my other comment in this thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=70299) I'd like to start http://ynot.bg for all of us who may be willing to go to Bulgaria and work on their ideas there. Hey, I think I even have 200m2 of class A office space available there. Hmmmm :-)

YC is great because you get environment and advise from people who were part of successful startups. Also their connection helps. After the rejection - it is better i do my work myself and then if needed - for connection and advise - I will apply again in YC for next round. You might be next BillGates or PaulGraham but at this time you are just like me and other developers who wants to be their own boss. So, as you don't have proven track record - I am not gonna move to SV just so that I can stay with other like minded. I am motivated enough to do same by staying at my place. I might be wrong but people should rethink about what they wanna achieve by moving...

YC is great, but I have realized this round that you need an easy mass appeal type idea to get in.

So a club of interested parties called 'Y Not' sounds good to me, I am not too far away to drive to SV (from San Diego, CA).

First I'd like to say congrats and good luck to those who were selected to go to the next round! I'm sure this is going to be a very exciting, yet very nerveracking experience.

For those of you in europe, although it's not quite the same thing as Y Combinator I've been following the Seed Camp blog. This seems to be something that may be of interest to you not in the US. http://www.seedcamp.com/

As for those who got rejected (like me and my partner), just keep on working at it and keep your eyes open to opportunities. We tried and by far that's far better than not trying at all.

t.

At this point, I wonder if we should start sharing YC applications, checking mutual interests and after that decide where, whom and when. Let's take the best out of a loss. If anyone is interested in South America (Buenos Aires) and build a p2p development platform, or need a highly skilled/experienced C++/webstuff programmer, drop me a line: rafael_imas[at]yahoo[dot]com.

Why not just organize some regular BarCamps?

It's completely off topic, but after reading through this thread, I have to say it: I love this community.

Please don't come here. Stay where you are and try to make it work. Rents are already thru the roof from too many people moving in.

I live in Santa Clara, here in SV, I'd love to meet up, please feel free to contact me.

Well if you weren't interested why did you even apply at all?

I think he means "Who is interested in moving to SV despite being rejected?"

You misread my post, it isn't a rhetorical question, but an call for action. I've clarified it now.

You should not call it 'rejects', but 'YCommunity' or something like that. If I were in the area, I'd be interested, but I'm not a YC reject (I'm a didn't even apply:-) Heck, maybe some of the YC-accepted would be interested in meeting up and sharing information.

I don't care how to call this community. Name is not that important comparing to the value of community itself :)

That was my bad, sorry.

I'm interested in the idea for weekly dinner and demo day - just wondering how would you get all the VCs to attend?

> how would you get all the VCs to attend

You're not going to get that. If there is no way to keep bozos out, there is no guarantee of quality, and thus less interest. So just stick to fun meetings once in a while, rather than anything smacking of an 'organization'.

Get a techcrunch posting and also start rumors that your demo day has change the world startups with amazing profit potencial. Get 20/30 people just to go around places and just mention it in a offhand way.