Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

> I'm glad this is still being updated.

We are too. There are a lot of languages out there and as we find them we add them (we have someone who is searching and adding them).

> If nothing else, this screenshot display ought to put to rest the idea that visual programming makes programming "intuitive" or "easy to understand".... most of these screenshots are just as opaque at first glance as any block of code is.

I'm not sure if I totally agree with your conclusion of what the VPL - Snapshot page is bringing to the table. I think this page shows that there are many different ways people form mental models. Not only in the domain of textual languages but even within the domain of Visual languages.

The intuitive or easy part comes from people being able to program a computer using the mental models they are most comfortable with.

As for VPLs being tried comprehensively, I think this is true in the case of domain specific VPLs and I think they are becoming more and more main stream. For general purpose, domain agnostic VPLs, I don't think we've even touched the surface.



If you want to create a nice general-purpose VPL, go nuts. I won't be offended. I'm skeptical, but open to being proved wrong.

However, I'm really tired of the "Hey, guys! We can just fix programming by MAKING IT VISUAL! How come nobody ever thought of this before? Everybody else must be stupid! I'm going to go work on this for three to six months and revolutionize programming as we know it! Be right back!"

And no, I don't think I'm particularly exaggerating that, up to and including the "everybody else must be stupid!" bit. The periodic conversations on HN every time this comes up definitely have that in them, with a selection of people slapping their metaphorical forehead and going "Yes, that's so true!". VPLs may work, and may be good in certain domains, but they aren't the Holy Grail. If they were, we'd already know, because in fact it's been tried tons of times.

Yes, I know that's not what you intended, but it's part of what's there. It's not a new idea, it's not something that magically makes all complexity go away, it's actually a well-explored field. If you want to contribute to it, I suggest learning about what's actually been explored, and then trying to figure out why your contribution won't have the same failures as the previous attempts at general-purpose VPLs. Maybe you have an answer to that question, in which, like I said, go nuts. But don't waste tons of time replicating the obvious answers, again, all the while thinking Revolution is just around the corner.

Visual programming isn't the only place where this comes up. Another one is "Hey guys, what programming really needs is a PERSISTENT ENVIRONMENT! How come nobody ever thought of this before? Everybody else must be stupid!" followed by a description of, basically, Smalltalk. I've actually clocked some time in persistent environments... there are reasons why it's less desirable than you think. If you can't fix them, or even see them, it's unlikely you're going to revolutionize the world. (It would be interesting to see a pure-functional take on that idea, though, while I'm musing.... a pure functional optional-and reactive environment would actually address a lot of the problems you can get there...)




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: